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Post by Friedrich “Fried Rice” Paulus on Apr 24, 2020 12:40:05 GMT
That’s fine. I dislike them too, and sometimes I get so frustrated so that I hate the game. Fog of war is really frustrating, and it want me to say bad words lol. But i guess thats in coordination of history as in classical roman age there are many locations undiscovered by them If the romans saw the hidden gothic soldiers as they marched deeper into the swamp at the battle of arbutus, they would not have been wiped out en masse. Hannibal also exploited geography often such as in the Battle of Lake Tresimene and the Battle of the Trebia River. Fog of war is a very historically accurate feature |
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Post by Friedrich “Fried Rice” Paulus on Apr 24, 2020 12:45:08 GMT
No, Fog of War in this game isn't even realistic if you try to argue that that's the reason its exists. If we havent explored those areas, then we shouldn't know where cities are and how the map looks at all. The map should be completely blacked out until you scout it out, like it's done in Civilization (I've only tried out Civ2, no idea if that's how its done in the other games). And that only works if exploration is a central element of the game, which it is in Civ 2, but not in GCR. I actually have never ever seen a single player grid-based war strategy game handle this kind of fog of war well. Fire emblem completely fails at it, GCR fails at it, EW5 fails at it, it's slightly better in Advance wars but is still bad in that series. All FoW does in this kind of game is turning levels into memory games as the best way to play the game is to scout it out, memorize enemy positions, reset, and then play like a psychic. Oh and the AI cheats, FoW doesn't exist for them, making Fog of War even less interesting to play around. If I want to play with FoW, then there should be mechanics that allow you to hide information from the enemy and mechanics that allow you to scout more. I want to be able to play mind games with the AI and pull off ambushes. It will be bad if the city will disappear in fow. And yes, there should be some mechanics like you cant stopped by the revealing enemy. Exactly, having the troop not stop, but also removing the option to retreat would be a perfect solution |
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Post by Navia Lanoira on Apr 24, 2020 13:47:32 GMT
Fog of war is really frustrating, and it want me to say bad words lol. But i guess thats in coordination of history as in classical roman age there are many locations undiscovered by them If the romans saw the hidden gothic soldiers as they marched deeper into the swamp at the battle of arbutus, they would not have been wiped out en masse. Hannibal also exploited geography often such as in the Battle of Lake Tresimene and the Battle of the Trebia River. Fog of war is a very historically accurate feature Yes, and the fact that, the intel of enemy positions are not fast or wide, unlike the present technology. |
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Post by Marshal Forwards on Apr 24, 2020 15:18:14 GMT
The ambush mechanics without FoW are implemented in EW6:1914 by having armies appear out of thin air. I am not sure which one is better(worse). I like the element of surprise from FoW but cant deny that it is very very very annoying. Let's see how ET can get this improved. I'd like Fog of War to be something that I can play around with. Advance wars for instance has this mechanic where you can't target a unit in a forest if you don't have vision to it (and forests are much harder to get intel to than other terrains), which also applies to the AI. This makes it possible to sneak up on an enemy and avoid artillery fire. Unfortunately FoW in that game still has the usual problems where formulating an optimal strategy is an annoying memory game, and it doesn't really work too well for the AI because they're dumb and don't actually play the same game as you do. It works very well in PvP though. And that's the reason I think FoW can't really easily be pulled off well in these kinds of games. The enemy isn't a player, an opponent you have to outsmart or something like that. They're level design, a puzzle with a several different solutions where some are better than others. This is pretty underlined with there being turn limits to missions and also that the AI always outnumbers you 8 to 1 and controls like 90% of the map at a start of a mission. This is also why FoW is meaningless for the AI as they don't have to care too much about running into your troops (which is the only actual effect of FoW in GCR), all they need to do is to block you to serve their intended purpose, whether or not it's by running into you or you running into them is meaningless. On the other hand it means a lot if you get stopped up by an enemy in the fog. That means not getting a city this turn or not attacking that pesky archer. This makes it feel more like an annoying handicap instead of an actual game mechanic that I can exploit against the AI. I'm also iffy on reinforcements for a similar reason (memory game), but imo it's better than FoW because you atleast get to know about 80% of what you're dealing with without restarting instead of 10% of what you're dealing with. The ambush in Battle of Abu Qir in 1804 is dumb though. It would be possible to deal with FoW when we had more scouts, faster light infantry or cavalry. But exactly these units have only a view of 1. They can’t avoid a fight, the opposite of a sneaky intel. Since you start with only the most valuable units you have to uncover the fog with your generals. So it prevents you from starting the fight in a proper tactical positioning. And to increase the disadvantage a revealed enemy forces you to stop without really blocking the way. For FoW the units view must be higher, at least on plain fields. Mountains and woods could be the terrain to hide and sneak. |
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Post by Marshal Forwards on Apr 24, 2020 15:43:31 GMT
Fog of war is really frustrating, and it want me to say bad words lol. But i guess thats in coordination of history as in classical roman age there are many locations undiscovered by them If the romans saw the hidden gothic soldiers as they marched deeper into the swamp at the battle of arbutus, they would not have been wiped out en masse. Hannibal also exploited geography often such as in the Battle of Lake Tresimene and the Battle of the Trebia River. Fog of war is a very historically accurate feature In the reality of ancient warfare that’s true. But smart strategists used intel instead of sending troops into blind spots. For an ambush I must see the enemy before beeing seen, an opportunity we don’t have in GCR. With FoW the game selects one simplified feature of ancient reality, but ignores many others: supply lines, water shortage, dependency on woods for fortifications starvation of sieged cities, epidemics in legions.and so on. Of course I can slow down and always explore an area before I send my elite in. But unlike Hannibal I have a round limit, so I must march as fast as possible. |
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Post by Darth Vader on Apr 24, 2020 15:49:57 GMT
I see where you are going to, I would personal love seeing you SURROUNDing your enemy and watch them strave . But, most people probably don't even know what majority where talking about and if easytech added all of the stuff in real war the game would be huge.
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Post by SolidLight on Apr 24, 2020 16:06:32 GMT
I'd like Fog of War to be something that I can play around with. Advance wars for instance has this mechanic where you can't target a unit in a forest if you don't have vision to it (and forests are much harder to get intel to than other terrains), which also applies to the AI. This makes it possible to sneak up on an enemy and avoid artillery fire. Unfortunately FoW in that game still has the usual problems where formulating an optimal strategy is an annoying memory game, and it doesn't really work too well for the AI because they're dumb and don't actually play the same game as you do. It works very well in PvP though. And that's the reason I think FoW can't really easily be pulled off well in these kinds of games. The enemy isn't a player, an opponent you have to outsmart or something like that. They're level design, a puzzle with a several different solutions where some are better than others. This is pretty underlined with there being turn limits to missions and also that the AI always outnumbers you 8 to 1 and controls like 90% of the map at a start of a mission. This is also why FoW is meaningless for the AI as they don't have to care too much about running into your troops (which is the only actual effect of FoW in GCR), all they need to do is to block you to serve their intended purpose, whether or not it's by running into you or you running into them is meaningless. On the other hand it means a lot if you get stopped up by an enemy in the fog. That means not getting a city this turn or not attacking that pesky archer. This makes it feel more like an annoying handicap instead of an actual game mechanic that I can exploit against the AI. I'm also iffy on reinforcements for a similar reason (memory game), but imo it's better than FoW because you atleast get to know about 80% of what you're dealing with without restarting instead of 10% of what you're dealing with. The ambush in Battle of Abu Qir in 1804 is dumb though. It would be possible to deal with FoW when we had more scouts, faster light infantry or cavalry. But exactly these units have only a view of 1. They can’t avoid a fight, the opposite of a sneaky intel. Since you start with only the most valuable units you have to uncover the fog with your generals. So it prevents you from starting the fight in a proper tactical positioning. And to increase the disadvantage a revealed enemy forces you to stop without really blocking the way. For FoW the units view must be higher, at least on plain fields. Mountains and woods could be the terrain to hide and sneak. Well, I'll admit that 2 range view units have their tactical uses by preventing you from crashing into the enemy, which is very important when you attack cities. Advance wars does this by giving infantry on mountains increased vision (scouting from high ground) and requiring you to stand right next to a forest to uncover it. However I don't think that would work in GCR because everything attacks at 1 range. And unfortunately, this still doesn't solve my biggest issue with Fog of War. I really, really hate that you have to memorize enemy positions to get things right. Like, in serious play, Fog of war would essentially be the same (in campaign) if you just made everything visible but still stopped your units on units you "can't see". Then you'd need to memorize less but still play as if the Fog was still in the game. I don't hate Fog of War as a concept though. It's almost mandatory for strategy in any PvP game ever imo, you almost can't force players to think from the opponents perspective without it. |
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Post by Marshal Forwards on Apr 24, 2020 16:11:59 GMT
I see where you are going to, I would personal love seeing you SURROUNDing your enemy and watch them strave . But, most people probably don't even know what majority where talking about and if easytech added all of the stuff in real war the game would be huge. I don’t want ET to add all of the said features. In a mobile game you cant copy reality. So the fact FoW was real doesn’t mean it needs to be implemented, especially since it’s only an advantage for AI and everybody is annoyed about it. |
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Post by Darth Vader on Apr 24, 2020 16:37:33 GMT
I see where you are going to, I would personal love seeing you SURROUNDing your enemy and watch them strave . But, most people probably don't even know what majority where talking about and if easytech added all of the stuff in real war the game would be huge. I don’t want ET to add all of the said features. In a mobile game you cant copy reality. So the fact FoW was real doesn’t mean it needs to be implemented, especially since it’s only an advantage for AI and everybody is annoyed about it. I like and hate fog of war at the same time. I hate that I don't know the AI's Strength,but it makes me more cautious and is very helpful when making a ambush. |
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Post by Friedrich “Fried Rice” Paulus on Apr 25, 2020 0:44:12 GMT
I see where you are going to, I would personal love seeing you SURROUNDing your enemy and watch them strave . But, most people probably don't even know what majority where talking about and if easytech added all of the stuff in real war the game would be huge. The game is already pretty huge for an easytech. But improvements can definitely be made |
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Post by Darth Vader on Apr 25, 2020 1:21:35 GMT
Many games do, especially wc3 and ew4 which brought in hudge revenue and If easytech updates them more maybe they will be paid back from the China government.
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Post by Navia Lanoira on Apr 25, 2020 15:04:41 GMT
It would be possible to deal with FoW when we had more scouts, faster light infantry or cavalry. But exactly these units have only a view of 1. They can’t avoid a fight, the opposite of a sneaky intel. Since you start with only the most valuable units you have to uncover the fog with your generals. So it prevents you from starting the fight in a proper tactical positioning. And to increase the disadvantage a revealed enemy forces you to stop without really blocking the way. For FoW the units view must be higher, at least on plain fields. Mountains and woods could be the terrain to hide and sneak. Well, I'll admit that 2 range view units have their tactical uses by preventing you from crashing into the enemy, which is very important when you attack cities. Advance wars does this by giving infantry on mountains increased vision (scouting from high ground) and requiring you to stand right next to a forest to uncover it. However I don't think that would work in GCR because everything attacks at 1 range. And unfortunately, this still doesn't solve my biggest issue with Fog of War. I really, really hate that you have to memorize enemy positions to get things right. Like, in serious play, Fog of war would essentially be the same (in campaign) if you just made everything visible but still stopped your units on units you "can't see". Then you'd need to memorize less but still play as if the Fog was still in the game. I don't hate Fog of War as a concept though. It's almost mandatory for strategy in any PvP game ever imo, you almost can't force players to think from the opponents perspective without it. You dont have to memorize the units position (much). The fog of war makes you get alert or get cautious in moving units. You just have to anticipate enemy actions in defending or stopping you. The only problem here is if you get stopped by the revealing enemy or moved much in the fog you wont be able to retreat them back. |
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Post by Darth Vader on Apr 25, 2020 15:10:06 GMT
Navia Lanoira, that Is why you send scouts like light Calvary units to scout ahead and protect your flanks.
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Post by Navia Lanoira on Apr 26, 2020 13:52:59 GMT
Navia Lanoira , that Is why you send scouts like light Calvary units to scout ahead and protect your flanks. Thats also i am talking about  forgot to add that in my message. |
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Post by Marshal Forwards on Apr 27, 2020 5:03:49 GMT
Navia Lanoira , that Is why you send scouts like light Calvary units to scout ahead and protect your flanks. Thats also i am talking about forgot to add that in my message. still light cav or light inf with 1 view isn’t really suited for intel and it hurts me to sacrifice one of the few 3-stack starting units I’m given in campaigns. But moaning doesn’t help. The game is as it is now and most of it is pretty well-made. Ive decided to make peace with FoW now, as I do with having only one item slot I can’t permanently switch for march, attack and AI phase. If I don’t wanna memorize enemy positions I can do a screenshot of a revealed city. In some situations even FoW is useful. When you stay off a territory border there’s a chance the enemy troops behind stay quiet until you attack a neighboring city. All, FoW, fixed items and the lack of archer speed is part of the balancing and I see the intention is to equalize my advantage in speed and attack. With Cassius’s words at Carrhae: „under the current circumstances the hope for a change is just a pipe dream for us. We can’t sit here in Carrhae. Deal with it now!“ |
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forgot to add that in my message.
