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Post by stoic on Aug 2, 2020 19:31:38 GMT
There is one more thing that keeps Mocte away from SS tier list. Abilities he receives at level 6 don't synergise well with each other... First,he has 75 percent probability to attack without retaliation. Well, if we are attacking infantry, cavalry or even artillery we will try to attack without retaliation if not absolutely forced to do otherwise. So, this ability makes sense only when we are attacking other archers. But his second ability has nothing to do with attack. So, even if it procs his damage against archers won't be that great. It is not absolutely useless, but it is very situational at best. If he had 2 abilities that Catherine has, or had bonus against cavalry instead,I would say he's really great. But since he hasn't, he remains that what he is - a good healer with leadership. Is it possible to find a place for him? Absolutely... I will do it this time as well. But is he on equal terms with game's greatest generals? I don't think so... Besides, let's face the truth, his third skill is a complete trash. There are not many really good third skills in the game, but some of them are really synergistic with the role of a general. Let's take Attila's third skill. Is it overpriced? Yes. Is it bad? No way! It corresponds really good with Attila's attacking potential. The same is true about Marshall skill of Barbarossa and Petain, increased defense of Caesar, two debuffs of Nobunaga and so on. But Mocte's third skill is hardly useful anywhere else outside Panama. And even there it is of limited value. So, I think Kevin is rather generous to him.
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Post by Friedrich “Fried Rice” Paulus on Aug 2, 2020 22:36:40 GMT
There is one more thing that keeps Mocte away from SS tier list. Abilities he receives at level 6 don't synergise well with each other... First,he has 75 percent probability to attack without retaliation. Well, if we are attacking infantry, cavalry or even artillery we will try to attack without retaliation if not absolutely forced to do otherwise. So, this ability makes sense only when we are attacking other archers. But his second ability has nothing to do with attack. So, even if it procs his damage against archers won't be that great. It is not absolutely useless, but it is very situational at best. If he had 2 abilities that Catherine has, or had bonus against cavalry instead,I would say he's really great. But since he hasn't, he remains that what he is - a good healer with leadership. Is it possible to find a place for him? Absolutely... I will do it this time as well. But is he on equal terms with game's greatest generals? I don't think so... Besides, let's face the truth, his third skill is a complete trash. There are not many really good third skills in the game, but some of them are really synergistic with the role of a general. Let's take Attila's third skill. Is it overpriced? Yes. Is it bad? No way! It corresponds really good with Attila's attacking potential. The same is true about Marshall skill of Barbarossa and Petain, increased defense of Caesar, two debuffs of Nobunaga and so on. But Mocte's third skill is hardly useful anywhere else outside Panama. And even there it is of limited value. So, I think Kevin is rather generous to him. Considering how low mocte’s hp is, his industrial talent isn’t completely terrible (it’s -50% damage from cavarly). But yes it does leave a lot to be desired. Yes moctezuma’s third skill is also not useful. But a blue level general with cure master and leadership is an absolute steal considering how cheap he is. He’ll make a significant difference in invasions as well as he is a nobunaga lite. You are right. He is purple tier in discovery age but loses his value towards industrial, as generals like yi sun sin’s -50% damage will make a bigger difference as units have more hp then. But for conquest personally, building a team around caesar and a team around moctezuma and pushing in 2 different directions is a good way to go.
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Post by stoic on Aug 3, 2020 2:02:09 GMT
There is one more thing that keeps Mocte away from SS tier list. Abilities he receives at level 6 don't synergise well with each other... First,he has 75 percent probability to attack without retaliation. Well, if we are attacking infantry, cavalry or even artillery we will try to attack without retaliation if not absolutely forced to do otherwise. So, this ability makes sense only when we are attacking other archers. But his second ability has nothing to do with attack. So, even if it procs his damage against archers won't be that great. It is not absolutely useless, but it is very situational at best. If he had 2 abilities that Catherine has, or had bonus against cavalry instead,I would say he's really great. But since he hasn't, he remains that what he is - a good healer with leadership. Is it possible to find a place for him? Absolutely... I will do it this time as well. But is he on equal terms with game's greatest generals? I don't think so... Besides, let's face the truth, his third skill is a complete trash. There are not many really good third skills in the game, but some of them are really synergistic with the role of a general. Let's take Attila's third skill. Is it overpriced? Yes. Is it bad? No way! It corresponds really good with Attila's attacking potential. The same is true about Marshall skill of Barbarossa and Petain, increased defense of Caesar, two debuffs of Nobunaga and so on. But Mocte's third skill is hardly useful anywhere else outside Panama. And even there it is of limited value. So, I think Kevin is rather generous to him. Considering how low mocte’s hp is, his industrial talent isn’t completely terrible (it’s -50% damage from cavarly). But yes it does leave a lot to be desired. Yes moctezuma’s third skill is also not useful. But a blue level general with cure master and leadership is an absolute steal considering how cheap he is. He’ll make a significant difference in invasions as well as he is a nobunaga lite. You are right. He is purple tier in discovery age but loses his value towards industrial, as generals like yi sun sin’s -50% damage will make a bigger difference as units have more hp then. But for conquest personally, building a team around caesar and a team around moctezuma and pushing in 2 different directions is a good way to go. You are right that healers can fill in their niche quite effectively. And I personally think that Cure Master and Armour are about equal though the first one is a flat bonus and the second one a percentage bonus, because the latter can reduce damage, but the former can restore your battle strength as well (not a minor deal in EW5). But this alone is not enough to call Mocte great. As Churchill said after Dunkirk: "It is a miracle but we can't win this war by evacuations". You have to bring something more to the table to be counted among the best. Besides, being blue means that his stats are not particularly impressive. Yet, it does not mean he hasn't any future. On the contrary, he has, and it was proven already. But he fits in perfectly only with a certain strategy, because there are definitely better archers there...
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Post by SolidLight on Aug 3, 2020 3:16:27 GMT
There is one more thing that keeps Mocte away from SS tier list. Abilities he receives at level 6 don't synergise well with each other... First,he has 75 percent probability to attack without retaliation. Well, if we are attacking infantry, cavalry or even artillery we will try to attack without retaliation if not absolutely forced to do otherwise. So, this ability makes sense only when we are attacking other archers. But his second ability has nothing to do with attack. So, even if it procs his damage against archers won't be that great. It is not absolutely useless, but it is very situational at best. If he had 2 abilities that Catherine has, or had bonus against cavalry instead,I would say he's really great. But since he hasn't, he remains that what he is - a good healer with leadership. Is it possible to find a place for him? Absolutely... I will do it this time as well. But is he on equal terms with game's greatest generals? I don't think so... Besides, let's face the truth, his third skill is a complete trash. There are not many really good third skills in the game, but some of them are really synergistic with the role of a general. Let's take Attila's third skill. Is it overpriced? Yes. Is it bad? No way! It corresponds really good with Attila's attacking potential. The same is true about Marshall skill of Barbarossa and Petain, increased defense of Caesar, two debuffs of Nobunaga and so on. But Mocte's third skill is hardly useful anywhere else outside Panama. And even there it is of limited value. So, I think Kevin is rather generous to him. I don’t think I’m being too generous to him. He’s actually good enough to be worth some investment imo. Nobunaga crushes him and Mocte is not even close to as good as him. This is because Nobunaga gets Mass Fire really soon and doesn’t have to lose it for too long, but that’s like the only archer that’s significantly better than him around the point you unlock him. Yi should be bought after Nobunaga and isn’t a lot better than Mocte at that point. And Jebe I actually don’t think is very good before industrial because there’s no good available archer commanders before Gunpowder.
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Post by stoic on Aug 3, 2020 3:52:32 GMT
There is one more thing that keeps Mocte away from SS tier list. Abilities he receives at level 6 don't synergise well with each other... First,he has 75 percent probability to attack without retaliation. Well, if we are attacking infantry, cavalry or even artillery we will try to attack without retaliation if not absolutely forced to do otherwise. So, this ability makes sense only when we are attacking other archers. But his second ability has nothing to do with attack. So, even if it procs his damage against archers won't be that great. It is not absolutely useless, but it is very situational at best. If he had 2 abilities that Catherine has, or had bonus against cavalry instead,I would say he's really great. But since he hasn't, he remains that what he is - a good healer with leadership. Is it possible to find a place for him? Absolutely... I will do it this time as well. But is he on equal terms with game's greatest generals? I don't think so... Besides, let's face the truth, his third skill is a complete trash. There are not many really good third skills in the game, but some of them are really synergistic with the role of a general. Let's take Attila's third skill. Is it overpriced? Yes. Is it bad? No way! It corresponds really good with Attila's attacking potential. The same is true about Marshall skill of Barbarossa and Petain, increased defense of Caesar, two debuffs of Nobunaga and so on. But Mocte's third skill is hardly useful anywhere else outside Panama. And even there it is of limited value. So, I think Kevin is rather generous to him. I don’t think I’m being too generous to him. He’s actually good enough to be worth some investment imo. Nobunaga crushes him and Mocte is not even close to as good as him. This is because Nobunaga gets Mass Fire really soon and doesn’t have to lose it for too long, but that’s like the only archer that’s significantly better than him around the point you unlock him. Yi should be bought after Nobunaga and isn’t a lot better than Mocte at that point. And Jebe I actually don’t think is very good before industrial because there’s no good available archer commanders before Gunpowder. Well, he's cheap to upgrade as well. His Cure master is twice as cheap as the same skill of Caesar, and Leadership is a cheap skill as well...
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Post by Friedrich “Fried Rice” Paulus on Aug 4, 2020 4:18:32 GMT
Another interesting on is heihachiro. He imo is very close to being torquoise but just barely misses the mark. Why is he good? Artillery leader: great. Navigation: decent. And most importantly, he keeps his cannot be counterattacked artillery ability at industrial, which cannot be said for most good artillery generals like li shimin, cleopatra, bismarck... Imo navigation + artillery leader > rumor alone, so he actually is better than bismarck. But bismarck is free while heihachiro is 3500 medals. And his artillery leader will at most benefit him and li shimin, the other good artillery general. He is an odd one for sure.
But there are countless other debuffers, or other aura generals like blucher or yi sun sin that should be considered prior. He’s very odd. If his 3rd skill was good, he might have even been pink
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Post by SolidLight on Aug 4, 2020 5:42:37 GMT
Another interesting on is heihachiro. He imo is very close to being torquoise but just barely misses the mark. Why is he good? Artillery leader: great. Navigation: decent. And most importantly, he keeps his cannot be counterattacked artillery ability at industrial, which cannot be said for most good artillery generals like li shimin, cleopatra, bismarck... Imo navigation + artillery leader > rumor alone, so he actually is better than bismarck. But bismarck is free while heihachiro is 3500 medals. And his artillery leader will at most benefit him and li shimin, the other good artillery general. He is an odd one for sure. But there are countless other debuffers, or other aura generals like blucher or yi sun sin that should be considered prior. He’s very odd. If his 3rd skill was good, he might have even been pink Navigation is really situational. It’s great for naval fights, but you really don’t fight enough of them to justify investing into Navigation anyway. Rumor is way handier imo. Artillery Commander I described as the worst commander skill in the game. This is because there’s only two artillery commanders and only one is available early, and I don’t consider him too good either. My main issue with Heihachiro is his terrible availability. You should be having other good artillery generals at this point so you have to justify spending 3500 on a new one. And I can’t, not unless you’re swimming in medals or something and just want every advantage for naval battles. I guess he’s better on a non-ArchCom run since Nelson and Yi Sun-sin exists. If he came around in Discovery (by the time you need artillery), I could be getting him (and actually also be using Khalid), but he comes in Industrial. What a shame.
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Post by Friedrich “Fried Rice” Paulus on Aug 4, 2020 14:08:40 GMT
Another interesting on is heihachiro. He imo is very close to being torquoise but just barely misses the mark. Why is he good? Artillery leader: great. Navigation: decent. And most importantly, he keeps his cannot be counterattacked artillery ability at industrial, which cannot be said for most good artillery generals like li shimin, cleopatra, bismarck... Imo navigation + artillery leader > rumor alone, so he actually is better than bismarck. But bismarck is free while heihachiro is 3500 medals. And his artillery leader will at most benefit him and li shimin, the other good artillery general. He is an odd one for sure. But there are countless other debuffers, or other aura generals like blucher or yi sun sin that should be considered prior. He’s very odd. If his 3rd skill was good, he might have even been pink Navigation is really situational. It’s great for naval fights, but you really don’t fight enough of them to justify investing into Navigation anyway. Rumor is way handier imo. Artillery Commander I described as the worst commander skill in the game. This is because there’s only two artillery commanders and only one is available early, and I don’t consider him too good either. My main issue with Heihachiro is his terrible availability. You should be having other good artillery generals at this point so you have to justify spending 3500 on a new one. And I can’t, not unless you’re swimming in medals or something and just want every advantage for naval battles. I guess he’s better on a non-ArchCom run since Nelson and Yi Sun-sin exists. If he came around in Discovery (by the time you need artillery), I could be getting him (and actually also be using Khalid), but he comes in Industrial. What a shame. I won’t complain about navigation. It’s good if a general has it, but it doesn’t factor much into the review of the general themselves. You are right, Khalid isn’t very good. Any artillery general that isn’t cleo or li shimin early on is worth ignoring. The only one worth getting is li shimin to deal with fortresses.
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Post by Hannibal Barca on Aug 4, 2020 15:47:51 GMT
I've been using Khalid since the Classical Age and he is quite good if you don't have medals to spare ...
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Post by Friedrich “Fried Rice” Paulus on Aug 4, 2020 18:05:41 GMT
I've been using Khalid since the Classical Age and he is quite good if you don't have medals to spare ... He’s not bad, it’s just there are piles of better generals like cleo, peter, yi sun sin, caesar, nobunaga, moctezuma, barbarossa... that we should obtain and upgrade prior. And once discovery age is beaten, we have access to blucher and nelson as well. He just doesn’t hold up by end game.
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Post by stoic on Aug 4, 2020 18:14:39 GMT
I've been using Khalid since the Classical Age and he is quite good if you don't have medals to spare ... He’s not bad, it’s just there are piles of better generals like cleo, peter, yi sun sin, caesar, nobunaga, moctezuma, barbarossa... that we should obtain and upgrade prior. And once discovery age is beaten, we have access to blucher and nelson as well. He just doesn’t hold up by end game. Some fortifications from discovery age and further are really strong. It is not always possible to brake through without an artillery general. And we don't have many options. LiShimin is really good but he is very expensive to buy and to upgrade. Koxinga is expensive and quite underpowered at the same time. Columbus is not expensive, but simply bad. So, we had a choice between Khalid and Cleo. Since Khalid is a Commander and has an important debuff I would say he's better than Cleo. But all in all they are close to each other, with their pros and cons...
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Post by Friedrich “Fried Rice” Paulus on Aug 4, 2020 18:24:43 GMT
He’s not bad, it’s just there are piles of better generals like cleo, peter, yi sun sin, caesar, nobunaga, moctezuma, barbarossa... that we should obtain and upgrade prior. And once discovery age is beaten, we have access to blucher and nelson as well. He just doesn’t hold up by end game. Some fortifications from discovery age and further are really strong. It is not always possible to brake through without an artillery general. And we don't have many options. LiShimin is really good but he is very expensive to buy and to upgrade. Koxinga is expensive and quite underpowered at the same time. Columbus is not expensive, but simply bad. So, we had a choice between Khalid and Cleo. Since Khalid is a Commander and has an important debuff I would say he's better than Cleo. But all in all they are close to each other, with their pros and cons... That or use Alexander as deals a lot of damage to forts.
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Post by stoic on Aug 4, 2020 18:50:20 GMT
Some fortifications from discovery age and further are really strong. It is not always possible to brake through without an artillery general. And we don't have many options. LiShimin is really good but he is very expensive to buy and to upgrade. Koxinga is expensive and quite underpowered at the same time. Columbus is not expensive, but simply bad. So, we had a choice between Khalid and Cleo. Since Khalid is a Commander and has an important debuff I would say he's better than Cleo. But all in all they are close to each other, with their pros and cons... That or use Alexander as deals a lot of damage to forts. I tried to use Alex as an artillery guy in disguise, but I wouldn't call it fully satisfactory... First of all, Alex gains his bonus at levels 2 and 6. To throw lvl 2 Alex against walls and fortifications of Discovery age is useless. To upgrade him to 6 stars is expensive. And after all he is an infantry guy, he has to come close to destroy the target. Ranged units have better chances to do it effectively. But since we can unlock Bismarck relatively early we can wait for him...
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Post by SolidLight on Aug 4, 2020 20:03:54 GMT
He’s not bad, it’s just there are piles of better generals like cleo, peter, yi sun sin, caesar, nobunaga, moctezuma, barbarossa... that we should obtain and upgrade prior. And once discovery age is beaten, we have access to blucher and nelson as well. He just doesn’t hold up by end game. Some fortifications from discovery age and further are really strong. It is not always possible to brake through without an artillery general. And we don't have many options. LiShimin is really good but he is very expensive to buy and to upgrade. Koxinga is expensive and quite underpowered at the same time. Columbus is not expensive, but simply bad. So, we had a choice between Khalid and Cleo. Since Khalid is a Commander and has an important debuff I would say he's better than Cleo. But all in all they are close to each other, with their pros and cons... Commander isn't that great for Khalid since he has bad rage regeneration due to being an artillery general and that he's literally the only person for most of the game who has it. His attack actually seems to be the lowest among all the generals in the entire game according to this spreadsheet so it doesn't even help him that much. Inspiration is a way more consistent +15% atk and def that's basically permanent. Rumor is also very hard to access at that point. Other than Cleopatra only Richard has it in medieval, and only Suleiman has it in Empire. Cleo has access to it AND can use it at range, which is ideal. The only problem with it is that its activation chance is quite low, but it's a far more powerful debuff imo. Spy is much easier to access, you can get it from Alexander if you want to, and Nobunaga is basically a must have for everyone. I don't think Khalid is bad. I just think it's very hard to justify using him in both the short term (because you don't need artillery then) and in the long term (because Cleopatra is better).
Bismarck also comes around by the time you want artillery, and he's basically uber Cleopatra.
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Post by Friedrich “Fried Rice” Paulus on Aug 4, 2020 21:43:08 GMT
That or use Alexander as deals a lot of damage to forts. I tried to use Alex as an artillery guy in disguise, but I wouldn't call it fully satisfactory... First of all, Alex gains his bonus at levels 2 and 6. To throw lvl 2 Alex against walls and fortifications of Discovery age is useless. To upgrade him to 6 stars is expensive. And after all he is an infantry guy, he has to come close to destroy the target. Ranged units have better chances to do it effectively. But since we can unlock Bismarck relatively early we can wait for him... Yes, he is phalanx ability is only at medieval and industrial which is a shame. Seems he is only extremely viable for inf com. Otherwise, use him till discovery then stop
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