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Post by stoic on Aug 5, 2020 2:10:45 GMT
Some fortifications from discovery age and further are really strong. It is not always possible to brake through without an artillery general. And we don't have many options. LiShimin is really good but he is very expensive to buy and to upgrade. Koxinga is expensive and quite underpowered at the same time. Columbus is not expensive, but simply bad. So, we had a choice between Khalid and Cleo. Since Khalid is a Commander and has an important debuff I would say he's better than Cleo. But all in all they are close to each other, with their pros and cons... Commander isn't that great for Khalid since he has bad rage regeneration due to being an artillery general and that he's literally the only person for most of the game who has it. His attack actually seems to be the lowest among all the generals in the entire game according to this spreadsheet so it doesn't even help him that much. Inspiration is a way more consistent +15% atk and def that's basically permanent. Rumor is also very hard to access at that point. Other than Cleopatra only Richard has it in medieval, and only Suleiman has it in Empire. Cleo has access to it AND can use it at range, which is ideal. The only problem with it is that its activation chance is quite low, but it's a far more powerful debuff imo. Spy is much easier to access, you can get it from Alexander if you want to, and Nobunaga is basically a must have for everyone. I don't think Khalid is bad. I just think it's very hard to justify using him in both the short term (because you don't need artillery then) and in the long term (because Cleopatra is better).
Bismarck also comes around by the time you want artillery, and he's basically uber Cleopatra. Khalid's rage regeneration is about the same as that of any Archer Commander. We won't play with auras activated all the time. The key is to activate them and to use them in most important situations. First of all, we should have it during final assaults, when timing is of great importance. Khalid's aura is not the easiest one to use, but it is there. Second, his basic attack is rather low, but if we decide to use him we will upgrade his weapon expert skill. This skill fully upgraded makes his attack about equal to that of Bismarck. So it has a good synergy with his active Commander skill which will increase his attack by another 50 percent. Moreover, it will increase attack of all artillery units nearby. Is it important? I would say "yes", because buffed LiShimin or Napoleon can destroy the thickest walls and towers in seconds. And it will be beneficial for units we recruit as well. So, Khalid's active skill is a way better than that of Cleopatra. Spy is an excellent skill for Khalid. Yes,Nobunaga and Alexander have it, but Alex can't place this debuff without retaliation and even Nobunaga will be counterattacked 50 percent of the time when he's attacking archers. Khalid will decrease defence of his targets by 50% every turn without retaliation. Is it worse than rumour (a great skill but with low probability to trigger)? I don't think so. Khalid and Cleo have different abilities at level 6. Cleo has mobility. On paper it sounds great, but in reality Cleo's attacking potential does not offer an opportunity to trigger it too often (especially late in the game). Khalid has 50 percent bonus against cavalry. It isn't great, but it is a sound option to have. He can really help to eliminate difficult targets. For example, he and Li are an excellent anti-cavalry team. So, my conclusion is that Cleo's skills and abilities are dependent on a chance, while Khalid's skills and abilities are reliable and useful. Last but not least, we don't evaluate generals in isolation. Khalid is better as a team player, because he can support other Artillery generals and it can be really useful in some situations. It does not happen too often that we use two artillery generals, but when it happens (and there are such missions here and there) Khalid is bringing more to the table than Cleo, imo...
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Post by stoic on Aug 5, 2020 3:16:52 GMT
Btw, almost all "special chapters" in campaigns are about destroying something on time. They are more difficult than regular campaigns and Khalid's aura is really shining there...
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Post by SolidLight on Aug 5, 2020 6:51:06 GMT
Commander isn't that great for Khalid since he has bad rage regeneration due to being an artillery general and that he's literally the only person for most of the game who has it. His attack actually seems to be the lowest among all the generals in the entire game according to this spreadsheet so it doesn't even help him that much. Inspiration is a way more consistent +15% atk and def that's basically permanent. Rumor is also very hard to access at that point. Other than Cleopatra only Richard has it in medieval, and only Suleiman has it in Empire. Cleo has access to it AND can use it at range, which is ideal. The only problem with it is that its activation chance is quite low, but it's a far more powerful debuff imo. Spy is much easier to access, you can get it from Alexander if you want to, and Nobunaga is basically a must have for everyone. I don't think Khalid is bad. I just think it's very hard to justify using him in both the short term (because you don't need artillery then) and in the long term (because Cleopatra is better).
Bismarck also comes around by the time you want artillery, and he's basically uber Cleopatra. Khalid's rage regeneration is about the same as that of any Archer Commander. We won't play with auras activated all the time. The key is to activate them and to use them in most important situations. First of all, we should have it during final assaults, when timing is of great importance. Khalid's aura is not the easiest one to use, but it is there. Second, his basic attack is rather low, but if we decide to use him we will upgrade his weapon expert skill. This skill fully upgraded makes his attack about equal to that of Bismarck. So it has a good synergy with his active Commander skill which will increase his attack by another 50 percent. Moreover, it will increase attack of all artillery units nearby. Is it important? I would say "yes", because buffed LiShimin or Napoleon can destroy the thickest walls and towers in seconds. And it will be beneficial for units we recruit as well. So, Khalid's active skill is a way better than that of Cleopatra. Spy is an excellent skill for Khalid. Yes,Nobunaga and Alexander have it, but Alex can't place this debuff without retaliation and even Nobunaga will be counterattacked 50 percent of the time when he's attacking archers. Khalid will decrease defence of his targets by 50% every turn without retaliation. Is it worse than rumour (a great skill but with low probability to trigger)? I don't think so. Khalid and Cleo have different abilities at level 6. Cleo has mobility. On paper it sounds great, but in reality Cleo's attacking potential does not offer an opportunity to trigger it too often (especially late in the game). Khalid has 50 percent bonus against cavalry. It isn't great, but it is a sound option to have. He can really help to eliminate difficult targets. For example, he and Li are an excellent anti-cavalry team. So, my conclusion is that Cleo's skills and abilities are dependent on a chance, while Khalid's skills and abilities are reliable and useful. Last but not least, we don't evaluate generals in isolation. Khalid is better as a team player, because he can support other Artillery generals and it can be really useful in some situations. It does not happen too often that we use two artillery generals, but when it happens (and there are such missions here and there) Khalid is bringing more to the table than Cleo, imo... Hm. I wasn't considering that way of using the commander. I still don't think it's that great because we're not using that many artillerymen for most of the game, but two in the late game is pretty reasonable I'd say. I suppose he's going to be debuffing a wall first and then you follow it up with a blast from Li or something. Yeah then he's more consistent than Cleopatra. I still don't think he's a good investment early on though because walls are not tough enough to justify using artillery in the early to mid game and you have much better things to spend your medals on. I'm going to move him up to green, or turquoise. He's like Jhansi, pretty useless in the early game but good in the late game. I'd also say he's a bit more valuable on a non-ArchCom run because Cleopatra is one of the only viable rumorers in an ArchCom run and Yi Sun-Sin can also debuff defense.
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Post by stoic on Aug 5, 2020 7:27:07 GMT
Khalid's rage regeneration is about the same as that of any Archer Commander. We won't play with auras activated all the time. The key is to activate them and to use them in most important situations. First of all, we should have it during final assaults, when timing is of great importance. Khalid's aura is not the easiest one to use, but it is there. Second, his basic attack is rather low, but if we decide to use him we will upgrade his weapon expert skill. This skill fully upgraded makes his attack about equal to that of Bismarck. So it has a good synergy with his active Commander skill which will increase his attack by another 50 percent. Moreover, it will increase attack of all artillery units nearby. Is it important? I would say "yes", because buffed LiShimin or Napoleon can destroy the thickest walls and towers in seconds. And it will be beneficial for units we recruit as well. So, Khalid's active skill is a way better than that of Cleopatra. Spy is an excellent skill for Khalid. Yes,Nobunaga and Alexander have it, but Alex can't place this debuff without retaliation and even Nobunaga will be counterattacked 50 percent of the time when he's attacking archers. Khalid will decrease defence of his targets by 50% every turn without retaliation. Is it worse than rumour (a great skill but with low probability to trigger)? I don't think so. Khalid and Cleo have different abilities at level 6. Cleo has mobility. On paper it sounds great, but in reality Cleo's attacking potential does not offer an opportunity to trigger it too often (especially late in the game). Khalid has 50 percent bonus against cavalry. It isn't great, but it is a sound option to have. He can really help to eliminate difficult targets. For example, he and Li are an excellent anti-cavalry team. So, my conclusion is that Cleo's skills and abilities are dependent on a chance, while Khalid's skills and abilities are reliable and useful. Last but not least, we don't evaluate generals in isolation. Khalid is better as a team player, because he can support other Artillery generals and it can be really useful in some situations. It does not happen too often that we use two artillery generals, but when it happens (and there are such missions here and there) Khalid is bringing more to the table than Cleo, imo... Hm. I wasn't considering that way of using the commander. I still don't think it's that great because we're not using that many artillerymen for most of the game, but two in the late game is pretty reasonable I'd say. I suppose he's going to be debuffing a wall first and then you follow it up with a blast from Li or something. Yeah then he's more consistent than Cleopatra. I still don't think he's a good investment early on though because walls are not tough enough to justify using artillery in the early to mid game and you have much better things to spend your medals on. I'm going to move him up to green, or turquoise. He's like Jhansi, pretty useless in the early game but good in the late game. I'd also say he's a bit more valuable on a non-ArchCom run because Cleopatra is one of the only viable rumorers in an ArchCom run and Yi Sun-Sin can also debuff defense. One significant problem with both Khalid and Cleo is that they loose at lvl 6 any possibility to attack towers without retaliation... As they are Artillery generals it is one of their most important tasks to surpress the fire. And towers can be quite dangerous late in the game especially taking into account that artillery has the weakest defence. LiShimin looses it as well, but since he has logistics he can attack towers all day long. And since he has his fire dragon back at lvl 6 he is probably the best at destroying fortifications. To increase his damage by 50 percent via Commander skill is not a bad idea at all. Since Heihachiro is a very expensive general we usually have only one option - Khalid (who is free and easy to upgrade)...
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Post by Admiral Aleksandr Kolchak on Sept 2, 2020 1:03:05 GMT
These are my generals so far, who should I aim for next? I’m thinking to take a mixed appraoch
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Post by andrei on Sept 2, 2020 6:28:48 GMT
These are my generals so far, who should I aim for next? I’m thinking to take a mixed appraoch Atilla. He is very strong and will also buff Khan with his commander skill.
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Post by stoic on Sept 2, 2020 13:25:20 GMT
I agree, I am playing currently with Attila and Hannibal equipped with Grugnir. I would say it is a very effective way to eliminate weaken enemies. Since Hannibal is nothing more than Khan in miniature, I firmly believe that Attila and Khan are an excellent team...
I remember when lvl 6 abilities of each general were unlocked, many said that Attila's 80 percent, and Khan's 100 percent vs. Infantry are underpowered in comparison to other abilities. But, actually, it is a blessing since they receive huge bonus against the most common type of units on the battlefield. And that means they will refill their rage bare more quickly, and that is always the key.
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Post by SolidLight on Sept 2, 2020 19:47:32 GMT
So due to my discovery of the hidden -25% damage reduction that walls have against non-artillery. I now think using Alexander as a siege unit seems fairly useless. I mean, he'll actually just deal +50% damage compared to when he's attacking other units and not +100%. That can't even come close to artillery units doing 400%. Plus sieging isn't terribly important in medieval and keeping him as a Hoplite later... yeah, not happening, and not useful.
He's still useful, no doubt, but his role as a infantry wallbuster seems much worse than I thought.
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Post by kanue on Sept 3, 2020 7:53:00 GMT
Bad news for Alex then. But he might be useful as a holder of Artifact weapon for infantry team... maybe? Since he as a good attack stat and (ironically) his active skill is not for team. Anyway, I would like to hear your opinion on Jebe. Base on my imagination, under ArcComm team, he should be able to mop up weak units and build up rage pretty fast (like Attila, except for he is better because of his range attack) so the should be able to nuke with Gungnir quite often.
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Post by Iron Duke on Sept 3, 2020 9:23:51 GMT
Bad news for Alex then. But he might be useful as a holder of Artifact weapon for infantry team... maybe? Since he as a good attack stat and (ironically) his active skill is not for team. Anyway, I would like to hear your opinion on Jebe. Base on my imagination, under ArcComm team, he should be able to mop up weak units and build up rage pretty fast (like Attila, except for he is better because of his range attack) so the should be able to nuke with Gungnir quite often. I know you didn't ask for mine, but here it is fwiw link
The only problem with giving him Gungnir is you miss out on his Armor.
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Post by SolidLight on Sept 3, 2020 10:49:40 GMT
Bad news for Alex then. But he might be useful as a holder of Artifact weapon for infantry team... maybe? Since he as a good attack stat and (ironically) his active skill is not for team. Anyway, I would like to hear your opinion on Jebe. Base on my imagination, under ArcComm team, he should be able to mop up weak units and build up rage pretty fast (like Attila, except for he is better because of his range attack) so the should be able to nuke with Gungnir quite often. I haven’t used him, but Jebe looks fun, and I actually think he can get away with Gungnir without missing out on his armor because he also has 1-2 range, letting him target enemies more freely and thus getting a lot more rage regen. The only problem as I see with him is that he probably needs a lot of commander buffs to utilize mobility properly and nearly every archer commander joins in Gunpowder or later. As for Alex, I think Richard is just better than him when it comes to holding Gungnir. Plus he’s probably cheaper overall. Iron Duke is doing that after all.
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Post by stoic on Sept 3, 2020 12:43:27 GMT
The value of Alex is dependent on his particular role in this or that team. Don't forget that he has Spy as his passive skill and it helps our team to take down fortifications more quickly than usual. It doesn't work against Headquarters, but it is not bad at all against walls and towers. And most likely we won't upgrade his first and third skills, so his overall cost is not that high in comparison to Richard, because promoting gold and purple generals is expensive anyway. If we plan to use only 1 Infantry general, I think, Barbarossa is the best. But a couple Barbarossa/Alex is perfectly possible when used as support generals.
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Post by SolidLight on Sept 3, 2020 14:06:21 GMT
The value of Alex is dependent on his particular role in this or that team. Don't forget that he has Spy as his passive skill and it helps our team to take down fortifications more quickly than usual. It doesn't work against Headquarters, but it is not bad at all against walls and towers. And most likely we won't upgrade his first and third skills, so his overall cost is not that high in comparison to Richard, because promoting gold and purple generals is expensive anyway. If we plan to use only 1 Infantry general, I think, Barbarossa is the best. But a couple Barbarossa/Alex is perfectly possible when used as support generals. We’re discussing using him as a Gungnir nuke. There’s only one strategy where you’ll consider using Alex/Richard as a Gungnir nuke. You have to be playing InfCom. Nobunaga or Saladin are otherwise just way better with it. Also, you should, for most of the game, not need rumor either on Richard too since it’s unreliable and you can now instant kill almost any enemy worth rumoring with Gungnir + some commanders. And Logistics vs Spy is just a no-brainer for me. And walls are not really that big of a deal in medieval since their HP is fairly manageable. Most people start to really want artillery by discovery, at which point everything is too strong for Hoplite Alex. So yeah, Richard seems better as a Gungnir-wielder.
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Post by kanue on Sept 3, 2020 14:22:13 GMT
Actually, should we also consider Mystletainn on melee? I think it's even more suitable since Gungnir effectiveness is limited by melee range.
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Post by SolidLight on Sept 3, 2020 14:30:43 GMT
Actually, should we also consider Mystletainn on melee? I think it's even more suitable since Gungnir effectiveness is limited by melee range. Oh.. is it? Huh. Interesting. I think Mystletainn is a worse nuke than Gungnir, atleast for me anyway. Plus it’s very hard for me to find anyone who can benefit from it. Still, hitting in an AoE is much better than hitting like Formation Master. So it’s probably great on someone like Nobunaga or Washington to wipe tons of generic troops in one attack.
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