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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2019 17:22:15 GMT
Before i start, i would like to address that technically speaking, yes, US lost to Vietnam. Withdrawing without returning to defeat your opponent isn't a tactical retreat, but an indirect way of admitting defeat. Also, there are others out there who are better at explaining the military and tactical mistakes the US had done, so i'll leave them to the experts. Now that's out of the way, the number 1 reason i believe why US lost to Vietnam is simply because of Philosophy. There was always 2 dominant spheres of Philosophy that exists,that being Western and Eastern Philosophy. The simple explanation of each is that Western philosophy starts from the parts and analyzes all of them to get to the whole, while Eastern Philosophy is more concerned on the Whole and how it affects the parts, or how everything is connected and what not. Basically, this means that the objectives of the 2 armies would be almost totally different. The objective of the US is to defeat the Vietcong using military superiority, crushing their armies at every turn and capturing cities and such. Meanwhile, the Vietcong's objective was to win the long game, and not really winning in the battlefield (which they never really did btw), but rather politically. Due to the harsh treatment of some US soldiers to the south vietnamese, the Vietcong gained millions of silent sympathizers from the neutral vietnamese or even from the ones that supported the US. Similarly, they were pretty aware of how much the US citizens, despite supporting the war at the time, weren't really sure what they were fighting for, while the Vietcong had one goal in mind, which was to expel the US so they can unify Vietnam under communist rule. The Tet offensive can be considered as one of the greatest moments in history where it show that you don't need to win the battle to win the war. A lot of people blame the hippies for the loss, but even if the Tet offensive failed and the war pushed through, the Soviet Union and China would most likely start to directly involve themselves, and the threat of nuclear war which can destroy the majority of the Earth is real. Also, since it was televised and shown how brutal it was and that it seems that the government was lying of the so called "US decisive victory", other countries may step in, with the guise of "ending US brutality". It was a war the US cannot win. It was checkmate even before they started.
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Post by Clausewitz on Jan 29, 2019 20:08:39 GMT
My opinion is that the usa have lost because they have not understood that you don't win wars by mere strength of troops and technology alone. Morals, knowledge of the Country (and culture) espionage and to bring the local population on your side is also crucial. They fight alongsiede the Vietnames people but not for them and the Vietnames know it.
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Post by Arya Stark on Jan 29, 2019 22:12:57 GMT
My opinion is that the usa have lost because they have not understood that you don't win wars by mere strength of troops and technology alone. Morals, knowledge of the Country (and culture) espionage and the to bring the local population on your side is also crucial. They fight alongsiede the Vietnames people but not for them and the Vietnames know it. Soft Power (i.e. diplomacy and culture, and all that comes with it) is crucial to winning a war. Plus the U.S. was only in it to fight against communism and the North Vietnamese, unlike the North Koreans (Who the U.S. fought for a similar reason) were very experienced, having fought the French in the decades before and learning how to fight against Western soldiers and equipment, and that sort of thing
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Post by Clausewitz on Jan 29, 2019 22:28:44 GMT
My opinion is that the usa have lost because they have not understood that you don't win wars by mere strength of troops and technology alone. Morals, knowledge of the Country (and culture) espionage and the to bring the local population on your side is also crucial. They fight alongsiede the Vietnames people but not for them and the Vietnames know it. Soft Power (i.e. diplomacy and culture, and all that comes with it) is crucial to winning a war. Plus the U.S. was only in it to fight against communism and the North Vietnamese, unlike the North Koreans (Who the U.S. fought for a similar reason) were very experienced, having fought the French in the decades before and learning how to fight against Western soldiers and equipment, and that sort of thing I'm no Native English speaker so it's hard for me to find the right words. What I mean is that the USA are not good at "soft power" there not understanding the Vietnames and there not no how there dealing with and they underestimate the Vietcong.
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Post by Arya Stark on Jan 29, 2019 22:31:16 GMT
Soft Power (i.e. diplomacy and culture, and all that comes with it) is crucial to winning a war. Plus the U.S. was only in it to fight against communism and the North Vietnamese, unlike the North Koreans (Who the U.S. fought for a similar reason) were very experienced, having fought the French in the decades before and learning how to fight against Western soldiers and equipment, and that sort of thing I'm no Native English speaker so it's hard for me to find the right words. What I mean is that the USA are not good In "soft power" there not understanding the Vietnames and there not no how there dealing with and they underestimate the Vietcong. Yeah, that's pretty much it
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2019 3:39:20 GMT
Funnily enough tho, people still believe that US still won since they inflicted more casualties to the Vietnam.
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Post by Arya Stark on Jan 30, 2019 12:28:51 GMT
Funnily enough tho, people still believe that US still won since they inflicted more casualties to the Vietnam. That's not how you win wars! Just ask the Germans in WWII. All the casualties they inflicted on the Soviets and the Soviets just keep coming at them
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2019 12:51:36 GMT
Funnily enough tho, people still believe that US still won since they inflicted more casualties to the Vietnam. That's not how you win wars! Just ask the Germans in WWII. All the casualties they inflicted on the Soviets and the Soviets just keep coming at them You'd be surprised that a lot of people actually believe the US won. People keep forgetting that, as Clausewitz has said, war is the continuation of politics by other means. War is just a way to get what you want politically, in case you aren't able to come up with a compromise, which is through brute force. Goal of war is not to kill, but to make the opponent agree to your terms, which in this case, US lost.
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Post by Clausewitz on Jan 30, 2019 12:57:25 GMT
Funnily enough tho, people still believe that US still won since they inflicted more casualties to the Vietnam. That's not how you win wars! Just ask the Germans in WWII. All the casualties they inflicted on the Soviets and the Soviets just keep coming at them In War's where Idolegy's Fight against each Other, Casual numbers are often pretty High. At the end of a Regime you probably get something around your Neck. A Medal or a Rope.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2019 13:43:18 GMT
That's not how you win wars! Just ask the Germans in WWII. All the casualties they inflicted on the Soviets and the Soviets just keep coming at them In War's where Idolegy's Fight against each Other, Casual numbers are often pretty High. At the end of a Regime you probably get something around your Neck. A Medal or a Rope. That's deep
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Post by Clausewitz on Jan 30, 2019 14:11:42 GMT
In War's where Idolegy's Fight against each Other, Casual numbers are often pretty High. At the end of a Regime you probably get something around your Neck. A Medal or a Rope. That's deep I grew up in the late stages of the German Democratic Republic(East Germany), They had Medals and rewards for every kind of things. At the End there throw around with Medals and stuff like that to keep people in line or they destroyed there lives as there see fit. History repeats it self, it was the same way in Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany.
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Post by Clausewitz on Jan 30, 2019 14:25:03 GMT
That's not how you win wars! Just ask the Germans in WWII. All the casualties they inflicted on the Soviets and the Soviets just keep coming at them You'd be surprised that a lot of people actually believe the US won. People keep forgetting that, as Clausewitz has said, war is the continuation of politics by other means. War is just a way to get what you want politically, in case you aren't able to come up with a compromise, which is through brute force. Goal of war is not to kill, but to make the opponent agree to your terms, which in this case, US lost. I didn't know that in the US many People believe that the Vietnam War was a Victory. I thought it was common Knowledge that it was a Loss?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2019 14:41:57 GMT
You'd be surprised that a lot of people actually believe the US won. People keep forgetting that, as Clausewitz has said, war is the continuation of politics by other means. War is just a way to get what you want politically, in case you aren't able to come up with a compromise, which is through brute force. Goal of war is not to kill, but to make the opponent agree to your terms, which in this case, US lost. I didn't know that in the US many People believe that the Vietnam War was a Victory. I thought it was common Knowledge that it was a Loss? Difference in thinking perhaps. Also, US people are pretty nationalistic, and pretty much blamed the hippies for "the withdrawal" of forces, although they themselves haven't experienced the hardships of war, let alone life. It's hard accepting that they got strategically outmaneuvered by a bunch of Vietnamese who still used 18th century way of relaying information.
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Post by Clausewitz on Jan 30, 2019 15:00:45 GMT
I didn't know that in the US many People believe that the Vietnam War was a Victory. I thought it was common Knowledge that it was a Loss? Difference in thinking perhaps. Also, US people are pretty nationalistic, and pretty much blamed the hippies for "the withdrawal" of forces, although they themselves haven't experienced the hardships of war, let alone life. It's hard accepting that they got strategically outmaneuvered by a bunch of Vietnamese who still used 18th century way of relaying information. That's kind of strange in the American Revolutionary War (something that probably every American hears about in School) Nathanael Greene did exactly the same thing in the southern theatre. He didn't win any decisive Battle but he was a thread because of his presence in the area. The British Army couldn't defeat him. The US didn't learn from there own History?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2019 2:04:59 GMT
That's kind of strange in the American Revolutionary War (something that probably every American hears about in School) Nathanael Greene did exactly the same thing in the southern theatre. He didn't win any decisive Battle but he was a thread because of his presence in the area. The British Army couldn't defeat him. The US didn't learn from there own History? People are for facts only if it serves them. But the moment facts threaten their identity, then they just toss it aside.
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