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Post by Marshal Forwards on May 1, 2020 18:03:57 GMT
I just came across this amusing title and wanted to share it. The link below is a detailed review of the book. From the publishers: “Published in the 200th Anniversary year of the Battle of Waterloo a witty look at how the French still think they won, by Stephen Clarke, author of 1000 Years of Annoying the French and A Year in the Merde. In France, Waterloo is still an open wound. The French know they lost, but they can't believe it, and think they were robbed. Two centuries after the Battle of Waterloo — June 18, 1815 — the French believe that whoever rules the universe got it wrong when Napoleon had victory snatched from his grasp. They are suffering in very much the same way as the English about almost every World Cup defeat to Germany since 1966. The Prussian General Blücher, arriving at the last minute to save Wellington from imminent defeat, was clearly offside and his goal really shouldn't have been allowed. Behind all the serious historical analysis, it honestly is that simple. How the French Really Won Waterloo re-examines Waterloo, and France's feelings about it. Napoleon is a national hero, he was a winner, not a loser — mais bien sûr!” www.historyextra.com/period/georgian/how-the-french-won-waterloo-or-think-they-did/
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Post by Darth Vader on May 1, 2020 19:15:14 GMT
I just came across this amusing title and wanted to share it. The link below is a detailed review of the book. From the publishers: “Published in the 200th Anniversary year of the Battle of Waterloo a witty look at how the French still think they won, by Stephen Clarke, author of 1000 Years of Annoying the French and A Year in the Merde. In France, Waterloo is still an open wound. The French know they lost, but they can't believe it, and think they were robbed. Two centuries after the Battle of Waterloo — June 18, 1815 — the French believe that whoever rules the universe got it wrong when Napoleon had victory snatched from his grasp. They are suffering in very much the same way as the English about almost every World Cup defeat to Germany since 1966. The Prussian General Blücher, arriving at the last minute to save Wellington from imminent defeat, was clearly offside and his goal really shouldn't have been allowed. Behind all the serious historical analysis, it honestly is that simple. How the French Really Won Waterloo re-examines Waterloo, and France's feelings about it. Napoleon is a national hero, he was a winner, not a loser — mais bien sûr!” www.historyextra.com/period/georgian/how-the-french-won-waterloo-or-think-they-did/Viva la Franca!
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Post by Marshal Forwards on May 1, 2020 20:40:57 GMT
Allright, we’ll call it a draw.
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Post by Arya Stark on May 1, 2020 21:09:45 GMT
I just came across this amusing title and wanted to share it. The link below is a detailed review of the book. From the publishers: “Published in the 200th Anniversary year of the Battle of Waterloo a witty look at how the French still think they won, by Stephen Clarke, author of 1000 Years of Annoying the French and A Year in the Merde. In France, Waterloo is still an open wound. The French know they lost, but they can't believe it, and think they were robbed. Two centuries after the Battle of Waterloo — June 18, 1815 — the French believe that whoever rules the universe got it wrong when Napoleon had victory snatched from his grasp. They are suffering in very much the same way as the English about almost every World Cup defeat to Germany since 1966. The Prussian General Blücher, arriving at the last minute to save Wellington from imminent defeat, was clearly offside and his goal really shouldn't have been allowed. Behind all the serious historical analysis, it honestly is that simple. How the French Really Won Waterloo re-examines Waterloo, and France's feelings about it. Napoleon is a national hero, he was a winner, not a loser — mais bien sûr!” www.historyextra.com/period/georgian/how-the-french-won-waterloo-or-think-they-did/Lol is this satire?
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Post by Marshal Forwards on May 1, 2020 21:30:31 GMT
Well, partly. Have you read the review? It seems in the French view Napoleon won a battle against Wellington and lost one afterwards against Bluchers Prussians. That’s at least a draw. And since the greatest national leader, the conqueror of Europe, couldn’t be defeated by mediocre humans it needed kinda cheat of destiny.
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Post by Arya Stark on May 1, 2020 21:35:25 GMT
Well, partly. Have you read the review? It seems in the French view Napoleon won a battle against Wellington and lost one afterwards against Bluchers Prussians. That’s at least a draw. And since the greatest national leader, the conqueror of Europe, couldn’t be defeated by mediocre humans it needed kinda cheat of destiny. Right.
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Post by Darth Vader on May 1, 2020 21:55:23 GMT
If only Napoleon sent his old guards to beat back the Prussians with the main army, then France could have beat back Wellington and won Waterloo. Viva Longue vie à l'empereur!
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Post by Nobunaga Oda on May 3, 2020 7:15:02 GMT
If we're actually talking about historical circumstances:
1. IIRC, I believe that Marshal Grouchy was supposed to either intercept the Prussians and prevent them from linking up with the international forces OR destroy the remnants of Blücher's army. His failure to completely carry out either objective allowed for the largely intact Prussians to join hands with the international forces at Waterloo.
2. Supposedly, Grouchy was able to identify an ongoing engagement at Waterloo, but he did not join the battle directly, and continued the pursuit of his Prussian targets. This was influenced by Napoleon and Soult's orders to pursue the Prussians. This would lead him to engage the Prussians at Wavre which would successfully block Grouchy from assisting Napoleon at Waterloo in time.
3. The international forces led by Wellesley held numerous advantages. He chose a good defensive position and he maneuvered his troops to a position which was close enough for Prussia to arrive at quickly. I believe that Wellesley's defensive tactics had also enhanced his forces' ability to hold the ground against strong French assaults.
4. Both Wellesley and Blücher likely had some intention to link up both Coalition armies and check Napoleon with numbers. This possible strategy would have guided both commanders to try to coordinate with each other's movements and the eventual link up at Waterloo. Despite fierce French attempts to disrupt the combining of both armies, eventually, the two did join forces. Blücher had also left a force at Wavre to either block the French should they come in force or move to support Wellesley if no opposition reared its head. This led to a stalling battle which prevented Grouchy from assisting in at Waterloo.
5. French tactical mistakes weakened the French ability to win and enhanced the Coalition's hand. Ney's solo cav charges would be extremely costly and he threw somewhat exhausted troops against a readied enemy in enemy territory. This was influenced by a possible mistaken belief that the enemy was retreating when in fact, it was the evacuation of wounded troops. This would bleed the French army, especially the cav. Additionally, Napoleon had decided to avoid committing the Old Guards to exploit Ney's breakthrough on the during the battle. This might have prevented Ney from collapsing and rolling back Wellesley's Coalition forces.
6. A decisive battle similar to Waterloo was inevitable. The major Coalition states were mobilising numerous armies. IIRC, Beresford was marshalling the assembly of Spanish and Portuguese troops. Austrian troops were marching to join the war. Murat's forces were decisively defeated in the Neapolitan War before Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo. Sooner or later, a decisive battle would have been fought. Undeniably, the alternative fictional battles would be less controversial than Waterloo. This is so since they were likely theoretical French failures in defending rather than an actual failed French offensive against a supposedly inferior foe.
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Post by Darth Vader on May 10, 2020 1:03:08 GMT
I remember hearing that a horn was played for grouchy to return to Waterloo but instead countinued the chase and was pended down.
Also I believe Napoleon should have sent his guards to help the main army against the Prussians. I wonder if Napoleon would still be able to beat RUSSIA and Austria even if he won.
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Post by Marshal Forwards on May 10, 2020 6:15:16 GMT
I remember hearing that a horn was played for grouchy to return to Waterloo but instead countinued the chase and was pended down. Also I believe Napoleon should have sent his guards to help the main army against the Prussians. I wonder if Napoleon would still be able to beat RUSSIA and Austria even if he won. “Bonaparte and the authors who support him have always attempted to portray the great catastrophes that befell him as the result of chance. They seek to make their readers believe that through his great wisdom and extraordinary energy the whole project had already moved forward with the greatest confidence, that complete success was but a hair's breadth away, when treachery, accident, or even fate, as they sometimes call it, ruined everything. He and his supporters do not want to admit that huge mistakes, sheer recklessness, and, above all, overreaching ambition that exceeded all realistic possibilities, were the true causes.“ — Carl von Clausewitz.
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Post by Harry Lillis "Bing" Crosby Jr on May 10, 2020 6:26:07 GMT
I remember hearing that a horn was played for grouchy to return to Waterloo but instead countinued the chase and was pended down. Also I believe Napoleon should have sent his guards to help the main army against the Prussians. I wonder if Napoleon would still be able to beat RUSSIA and Austria even if he won. “Bonaparte and the authors who support him have always attempted to portray the great catastrophes that befell him as the result of chance. They seek to make their readers believe that through his great wisdom and extraordinary energy the whole project had already moved forward with the greatest confidence, that complete success was but a hair's breadth away, when treachery, accident, or even fate, as they sometimes call it, ruined everything. He and his supporters do not want to admit that huge mistakes, sheer recklessness, and, above all, overreaching ambition that exceeded all realistic possibilities, were the true causes.“ — Carl von Clausewitz. vom kriege? You read it?
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Post by Marshal Forwards on May 10, 2020 6:55:32 GMT
“Bonaparte and the authors who support him have always attempted to portray the great catastrophes that befell him as the result of chance. They seek to make their readers believe that through his great wisdom and extraordinary energy the whole project had already moved forward with the greatest confidence, that complete success was but a hair's breadth away, when treachery, accident, or even fate, as they sometimes call it, ruined everything. He and his supporters do not want to admit that huge mistakes, sheer recklessness, and, above all, overreaching ambition that exceeded all realistic possibilities, were the true causes.“ — Carl von Clausewitz. vom kriege? You read it? Not yet. Is it from the book? I’m interested in history but anything but an expert for the Napoleonic era. After I’ve read about the pretty good job of the bonapartic propagandists I just digged a bit deeper and found this quote. As a non-native anglophone it was easier to just copy it.
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Post by Harry Lillis "Bing" Crosby Jr on May 10, 2020 7:14:04 GMT
Not yet. Is it from the book? I’m interested in history but anything but an expert for the Napoleonic era. After I’ve read about the pretty good job of the bonapartic propagandists I just digged a bit deeper and found this quote. As a non-native anglophone it was easier to just copy it. Well if you talk about publications by Clausewitz most likely it will come in that canonical work. I have not read it to confirm this quote, but it may be likely considering how Clausewitz formulates his strategic ruminations from his experiences in the Napoleonic Wars
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Post by John Marston on Jan 7, 2021 10:05:58 GMT
Well, sometimes after a huge historical event, when we reanalyzed what went wrong, we can only get really minute mistakes, which will change the world forever. Even in ww2, when Hitler attacked Yugoslavia before Barbarossa, it cost him the war itself
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