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Post by scipioafricanus on May 31, 2020 9:32:28 GMT
Hello all, i’ve tested some skills in order to get better theyr real power and utility.
Lets start from the commander skills.
It’s easy to notice that the 20 additive attack isnt flat but % of the base attack of the unit (and this attack added has not further increased by the other general stats. So if u add 20% attack to a 100 BASE attack unit, the attack added will be 20 in both cases he have a general or not. Actually a bit less than 20, for small numbers for exemple 9, the add is 9; for bigger numbers they cut off 1-3 attack).
Ok now lets tale a look at pierce skill. I’ve tested it using Straubenburg in the first conquest not challenge in order to find an enemy with 15 armor. I’ve then used him to attack this unit and reported the data.
Pierce with 0 armor obtained:
131
144
126
145
121
125
127
130
139
169 crit
134
142
135
131
140
125
144
131
145
Average 133 without crit
No pierce (15 armor)
117
121
118
115
120
118
122
121
118
125
125
Average: 120
Then i’ve tested against another unit with 46 armor:
With pierce, 31 armor
93
98
95
99
93
95
99
111
99
104
105
105
107
98
105
109
124 crit
124 crit
128 crit
100,9 average without crit
No pierce: 46 armor
101
92
87
89
101
88
88
95
88
100
96
100
87
Average 93,2
Armor and average damage.
0: 133
15: 120
31: 101
46: 93
Maybe with more datas this can help not only get the power of this skill (that add about 13 damage to a very low armor enemy and 7 to a 46 armor enemy) but may be helpful to get the power of armor in reducing damage.
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Post by scipioafricanus on May 31, 2020 9:40:43 GMT
Actually my general have the assault skill, so i was trying to get if this skill adds the 20 damage at the end of all counts or what.
I’ve done some attacks with an infantry unit with Sydney J on him and with a similar attack of Strau he used to make even less than 20 of the no pierce average 15 armor. But for now i was lazy to make enough datas and report them.
This means that probably the assault type skills are very strong cause they add 20 or more damage at last of the attack and dont care at the armor. Making them not only much more powerful than pierce, but even much better against an hight armored enemy (this is only a supposition for now, but i will test later and report here).
I then will test the terrain bonus Skills.
If u have any idea or some solution pls share here
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Post by scipioafricanus on May 31, 2020 9:43:19 GMT
Actually my general have the assault skill, so i was trying to get if this skill adds the 20 damage at the end of all counts or what. I’ve done some attacks with an infantry unit with Sydney J on him and with a similar attack of Strau he used to make even less than 20 of the no pierce average 15 armor. But for now i was lazy to make enough datas and report them. This means that probably the assault type skills are very strong cause they add 20 or more damage at last of the attack and dont care at the armor. Making them not only much more powerful than pierce, but even much better against an hight armored enemy (this is only a supposition for now, but i will test later and report here). I then will test the terrain bonus Skills. If u have any idea or some solution pls share here Oh, obviusly the pierce skill doesnt add 13-7 damage but only ~ half of that amount Cause 45% of times it doesnt proc. so in my opinion, if this is confirmed by other sources, this should put pierce in very very bad skills tier. (In highter difficult Enemies with more armor this damage add should be even less....) |
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tokra
First Lieutenant
Posts: 32
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Post by tokra on May 31, 2020 12:30:30 GMT
Hello all, i’ve tested some skills in order to get better theyr real power and utility. Lets start from the commander skills. It’s easy to notice that the 20 additive attack isnt flat but % of the base attack of the unit (and this attack added has not further increased by the other general stats. So if u add 20% attack to a 100 BASE attack unit, the attack added will be 20 in both cases he have a general or not. Actually a bit less than 20, for small numbers for exemple 9, the add is 9; for bigger numbers they cut off 1-3 attack). Ok now lets tale a look at pierce skill. I’ve tested it using Straubenburg in the first conquest not challenge in order to find an enemy with 15 armor. I’ve then used him to attack this unit and reported the data. Pierce with 0 armor obtained: 131 144 126 145 121 125 127 130 139 169 crit 134 142 135 131 140 125 144 131 145 Average 133 without crit No pierce (15 armor) 117 121 118 115 120 118 122 121 118 125 125 Average: 120 Then i’ve tested against another unit with 46 armor: With pierce, 31 armor 93 98 95 99 93 95 99 111 99 104 105 105 107 98 105 109 124 crit 124 crit 128 crit 100,9 average without crit No pierce: 46 armor 101 92 87 89 101 88 88 95 88 100 96 100 87 Average 93,2 Armor and average damage. 0: 133 15: 120 31: 101 46: 93 Maybe with more datas this can help not only get the power of this skill (that add about 13 damage to a very low armor enemy and 7 to a 46 armor enemy) but may be helpful to get the power of armor in reducing damage. Which level is pierce? Maybe only level 6 with medal is worth skilling it. |
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Post by Harry Lillis "Bing" Crosby Jr on May 31, 2020 12:31:23 GMT
Actually my general have the assault skill, so i was trying to get if this skill adds the 20 damage at the end of all counts or what. I’ve done some attacks with an infantry unit with Sydney J on him and with a similar attack of Strau he used to make even less than 20 of the no pierce average 15 armor. But for now i was lazy to make enough datas and report them. This means that probably the assault type skills are very strong cause they add 20 or more damage at last of the attack and dont care at the armor. Making them not only much more powerful than pierce, but even much better against an hight armored enemy (this is only a supposition for now, but i will test later and report here). I then will test the terrain bonus Skills. If u have any idea or some solution pls share here Oh, obviusly the pierce skill doesnt add 13-7 damage but only ~ half of that amount Cause 45% of times it doesnt proc. so in my opinion, if this is confirmed by other sources, this should put pierce in very very bad skills tier. (In highter difficult Enemies with more armor this damage add should be even less....) Pierce at level 6 has a 100% chance of 25% defense penetration though |
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Post by kanue on May 31, 2020 17:46:49 GMT
If a unit has a def stat of x then it takes 1/(1 + x/100)*100% of damage.
So if you compare a unit with 15 def to another unit with 0 def (e.g. was attacked with Pierce triggers) then the two units take 87% and 100% damage respectively. That also means the latter take 15% more damage and, in a way, you may say that Pierce (if triggers) adds 15% damage. Now, a lvl5 Pierce has 55% chance to trigger so it's a 0.55*15% = 8.25% additional damage on average.
A 8.5% damage boost sounds nice, but there are many other things to consider
First, flat damage skills (e.g. Assault, Intercept, etc...) bypass defense so this chunk of damage receive no benefit from Pierce skill.
Second, the impact of 15 def reduction from Pierce skill declines as the target's defense stat gets higher. For example, a unit with 60 def stat take only 10.34% more damage (VS 15% for a unit with 15 def stat) from Pierce skill. That's a +5.69% more damage when multiplied by 55% trigger chance. So, basically, it's more effective on low def unit like artillery.
So, mathematically, Pierce is just an OK skill. Still better than +crit skills. But, at lvl 6, this skill gives a 100% chance of -20 defense, which is powerful. On top of that, it feels good to see something pops up frequently when you attack so I will have one of my eye close when I evaluate this skill.
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Post by Darth Vader on May 31, 2020 18:03:48 GMT
If a unit has a def stat of x then it takes 1/(1 + x/100)*100% of damage. So if you compare a unit with 15 def to another unit with 0 def (e.g. was attacked with Pierce triggers) then the two units take 87% and 100% damage respectively. That also means the latter take 15% more damage and, in a way, you may say that Pierce (if triggers) adds 15% damage. Now, a lvl5 Pierce has 55% chance to trigger so it's a 0.55*15% = 8.25% additional damage on average. A 8.5% damage boost sounds nice, but there are many other things to consider First, flat damage skills (e.g. Assault, Intercept, etc...) bypass defense so this chunk of damage receive no benefit from Pierce skill. Second, the impact of 15 def reduction from Pierce skill declines as the target's defense stat gets higher. For example, a unit with 60 def stat take only 10.34% more damage (VS 15% for a unit with 15 def stat) from Pierce skill. That's a +5.69% more damage when multiplied by 55% trigger chance. So, basically, it's more effective on low def unit like artillery. So, mathematically, Pierce is just an OK skill. Still better than +crit skills. But, at lvl 6, this skill gives a 100% chance of -20 defense, which is powerful. On top of that, it feels good to see something pops up frequently when you attack so I will have one of my eye close when I evaluate this skill. Basically it has the Krupp cannon skill but instead of penetrating trough the whole defensive it's only 20 but like you said at level 6 it's does 100% chance every attack do it's pretty powerful at Max level. |
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Post by Harry Lillis "Bing" Crosby Jr on Jun 1, 2020 1:49:45 GMT
Well, whenever anyone tries to do stats kanue will always pop up without fail  |
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Post by valdemar on Jun 1, 2020 5:28:06 GMT
Isn't the lack of effect also related to weapon type vs armor type?
With medal and cav expert Frunze (King) on arm car will one shot any light inf, light art, light cav on any terrain in non-challenge.
Sure there is problem with medium+ armored units... But isn't that why you bring Artillery.
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Post by scipioafricanus on Nov 27, 2020 11:29:12 GMT
If a unit has a def stat of x then it takes 1/(1 + x/100)*100% of damage. So if you compare a unit with 15 def to another unit with 0 def (e.g. was attacked with Pierce triggers) then the two units take 87% and 100% damage respectively. That also means the latter take 15% more damage and, in a way, you may say that Pierce (if triggers) adds 15% damage. Now, a lvl5 Pierce has 55% chance to trigger so it's a 0.55*15% = 8.25% additional damage on average. A 8.5% damage boost sounds nice, but there are many other things to consider First, flat damage skills (e.g. Assault, Intercept, etc...) bypass defense so this chunk of damage receive no benefit from Pierce skill. Second, the impact of 15 def reduction from Pierce skill declines as the target's defense stat gets higher. For example, a unit with 60 def stat take only 10.34% more damage (VS 15% for a unit with 15 def stat) from Pierce skill. That's a +5.69% more damage when multiplied by 55% trigger chance. So, basically, it's more effective on low def unit like artillery. So, mathematically, Pierce is just an OK skill. Still better than +crit skills. But, at lvl 6, this skill gives a 100% chance of -20 defense, which is powerful. On top of that, it feels good to see something pops up frequently when you attack so I will have one of my eye close when I evaluate this skill. Sorry for the big late eheh. Thank you much for the clarification, I thought that armor effect wasn’t know. I agree with you and in my opinion the conseguence is that Pierce simply don’t find space into a general skills. Infantry master adds 10% damage that is always better than pierce, specially against hight armor units. (It’s wronger only for very low armor enemy but we don’t have problems against them and in challenger/hard modes there arent. Maybe if someone like it so much it can be put instead of intercept or ambush, but that’s not my personal preference |
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Post by scipioafricanus on Nov 27, 2020 11:31:10 GMT
Isn't the lack of effect also related to weapon type vs armor type? With medal and cav expert Frunze (King) on arm car will one shot any light inf, light art, light cav on any terrain in non-challenge. Sure there is problem with medium+ armored units... But isn't that why you bring Artillery. That’s another type of multiplier, don’t change the point of the topic |
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Post by kanue on Nov 29, 2020 13:34:48 GMT
Sorry for the big late eheh. Thank you much for the clarification, I thought that armor effect wasn’t know. I agree with you and in my opinion the conseguence is that Pierce simply don’t find space into a general skills. Infantry master adds 10% damage that is always better than pierce, specially against hight armor units. (It’s wronger only for very low armor enemy but we don’t have problems against them and in challenger/hard modes there arent. Maybe if someone like it so much it can be put instead of intercept or ambush, but that’s not my personal preference Even though we do know about the armor effect but we are not really sure if what we know is correct. All of my calculation is based on the EW6:1804 (which is 110 years earlier). But it is still reasonable to assume that they are the same since ET uses the same game engine. |
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