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Post by stoic on Jul 29, 2020 19:02:00 GMT
Indeed it is not particularly just to evaluate generals together with certain artifacts. What about, for example, Hannibal + bottle of life? He has bravenes as Khan and Stomp at lvl 6,again as Khan. Their A1 is irrelevant since they will use artifact instead of their active skills. The only difference between them in this case is their stats, which is significant, but not enough to name one "great" and another one "mediocre"... LiShimin with bottle of life is OP as well, because his basic HP is even higher than Khan's and he has logistics to survive. And so on... The bottle of life is great by itself without attachment to any particular general  There is one point to doing that though, and that's to find out who benefits the most from the artifacts. Usually it's the ones with lousy actives and with high player phase action economy, like Genghis Khan. It is indeed very unfortunate that it is either/or situation. Usually active skills are the good ones to sacrifice them willingly... |
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Post by Iron Duke on Jul 29, 2020 19:37:27 GMT
Kudos on this thread by the way, a mighty endeavour with excellent analysis so far. A few minor queries though now I've caught up on reading them all: "Nobunaga: Probably the 2nd best archer in the game". 2nd best? I'm curious to see who comes 1st. For me he's the only non-IAP contender with Atilla for EW5 MVP. I'd have Yi & Edward as green rather than turquoise: I found Edward difficult to utilise until very late in the game due to his weakness in defence, although I recognise that Cav Commanders are in short supply. Yi has high attack and Armour is useful, but in Archcom I'd always recommend Nelson, Li & Nobby as top 3 with Jebe 4th for me. Of course these things are subjective and it's your opinion that counts given the name of the thread and if stoic disagrees on Yi & Eddie then you should probably listen to him instead  |
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Post by SolidLight on Jul 29, 2020 19:46:31 GMT
Kudos on this thread by the way, a mighty endeavour with excellent analysis so far. A few minor queries though now I've caught up on reading them all: "Nobunaga: Probably the 2nd best archer in the game". 2nd best? I'm curious to see who comes 1st. For me he's the only non-IAP contender with Atilla for EW5 MVP. I'd have Yi & Edward as green rather than turquoise: I found Edward difficult to utilise until very late in the game due to his weakness in defence, although I recognise that Cav Commanders are in short supply. Yi has high attack and Armour is useful, but in Archcom I'd always recommend Nelson, Li & Nobby as top 3 with Jebe 4th for me. Of course these things are subjective and it's your opinion that counts given the name of the thread and if stoic disagrees on Yi & Eddie then you should probably listen to him instead I said I've heard Washington being considered #1 by most of the community. But I also don't quite agree with that myself since I also think Nobunaga is indeed #1. But I've used Washington on an earlier run and he's the only person who was able to do 1000+ damage consistently on a non-commander run and was super tough due to Logistics, so I do see why people like Washington so much. I don't see how I can drop Yi that much, his stats seem usable and armor master seems handy too. He's also available early, unlike Nelson and Li. And Edward I think is fairly central in a CavCom run, which is pink territory, but he has such huge weaknesses that he drops down a tier, that's my thinking about his ranking. I'll have to go sleep soon so I'll handle industrial gens later. But thanks for the input! |
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Post by stoic on Jul 29, 2020 19:48:36 GMT
Kudos on this thread by the way, a mighty endeavour with excellent analysis so far. A few minor queries though now I've caught up on reading them all: "Nobunaga: Probably the 2nd best archer in the game". 2nd best? I'm curious to see who comes 1st. For me he's the only non-IAP contender with Atilla for EW5 MVP. I'd have Yi & Edward as green rather than turquoise: I found Edward difficult to utilise until very late in the game due to his weakness in defence, although I recognise that Cav Commanders are in short supply. Yi has high attack and Armour is useful, but in Archcom I'd always recommend Nelson, Li & Nobby as top 3 with Jebe 4th for me. Of course these things are subjective and it's your opinion that counts given the name of the thread and if stoic disagrees on Yi & Eddie then you should probably listen to him instead No, I actually agree... Moreover I have nothing to add |
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Post by stoic on Jul 29, 2020 19:55:39 GMT
Probably Kevin meant Washington as an archer number one, but an overall utility of Nobunaga and his exceptional combination of debuffs are better in my opinion, than Washington's damage and self-sufficiency...
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Post by SolidLight on Jul 29, 2020 20:00:37 GMT
Probably Kevin meant Washington as an archer number one, but an overall utility of Nobunaga and his exceptional combination of debuffs are better in my opinion, than Washington's damage and self-sufficiency... That's generally what I think too tbh. |
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Post by Iron Duke on Jul 29, 2020 20:05:20 GMT
Probably Kevin meant Washington as an archer number one, but an overall utility of Nobunaga and his exceptional combination of debuffs are better in my opinion, than Washington's damage and self-sufficiency... That's generally what I think too tbh. Yeah I must've skimmed over your section on Washington, I tend to exclude IAPs from my thinking as I don't have any |
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Post by stoic on Jul 29, 2020 20:10:32 GMT
Yeah, we are like the Fox and the Grapes with Iron Duke in this situation |
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Post by yuanzhong on Jul 30, 2020 2:52:11 GMT
Khan strength is very high base stats and can increase rage quickly. His weaknesses are his stupid active skill and survivability. And bottle of life give him both, regen option (it's wasted when use for Logistic guys) for survivability and great healing skill (it's wasted when give to guys with great buff skills). You don't waste anything when giving Khan the bottle. Calvary is the best unit to get quick rage in game also. Khan and bottle become perfect when going together.
That's why I say Khan is the best candidate for Bottle wearing guy ^^!
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Post by stoic on Jul 30, 2020 6:50:22 GMT
It well may be that Chan and the bottle are created for each other, but there are several important points, imo. IAPs are undeniably great: they can help at the beginning of the game when resources are scarce and their stats are second to none. But if we look a bit close we can see that Khan and Washington don't have any important buffs or debuffs. And then we may have an interesting picularity known in psychology as "sunk cost fallacy". Why do people buy IAPs? Well, some do it for a collection, others (like andrei, for example) do it to support ET... But most of the time players buy IAP generals to use them actively in the game. And here we could have some problems... Let's suppose a player with IAPs is trying to build up a team of archers. Good choice, but the question is why does he need Khan then? On his own Khan can't deal a lot of damage or to survive. He really needs a backup to be effective. And, truth be told, other cavalry generals (like Blucher, for example) are better suited for Archers' teams than Khan is. Let's suppose a player with IAPs is trying to build up a cavalry team. The question is why does he need Washington then? Washington doesn't have important buffs or debuffs and is not thus in this supportive role as good as Nobunaga, for example... Let's suppose a player is trying to create an Infantry team... The question is why did he purchase IAPs at all My point is that a player needs another purchase (bottle of universe) to make his previous purchases (IAP generals) viable in every situation and to justify their presence on the battlefield. |
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Post by stoic on Jul 30, 2020 7:03:16 GMT
Probably a balanced lineup is best suited for players with IAP generals, but, again, it is possible to create a powerful and balanced team with generals who have better synergy with each other - Attila/Blucher or Li/Nobunaga, for example.
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Post by SolidLight on Jul 30, 2020 7:19:52 GMT
It well may be that Chan and the bottle are created for each other, but there are several important points, imo. IAPs are undeniably great: they can help at the beginning of the game when resources are scarce and their stats are second to none. But if we look a bit close we can see that Khan and Washington don't have any important buffs or debuffs. And then we may have an interesting picularity known in psychology as "sunk cost fallacy". Why do people buy IAPs? Well, some do it for a collection, others (like andrei, for example) do it to support ET... But most of the time players buy IAP generals to use them actively in the game. And here we could have some problems... Let's suppose a player with IAPs is trying to build up a team of archers. Good choice, but the question is why does he need Khan then? On his own Khan can't deal a lot of damage or to survive. He really needs a backup to be effective. And, truth be told, other cavalry generals (like Blucher, for example) are better suited for Archers' teams than Khan is. Let's suppose a player with IAPs is trying to build up a cavalry team. The question is why does he need Washington then? Washington doesn't have important buffs or debuffs and is not thus in this supportive role as good as Nobunaga, for example... Let's suppose a player is trying to create an Infantry team... The question is why did he purchase IAPs at all My point is that a player needs another purchase (bottle of universe) to make his previous purchases (IAP generals) viable in every situation and to justify their presence on the battlefield. Napoleon is handy for any player, but he’s expensive and not as efficient at clearing mooks like the other two. I think using IAPs early on ruins a lot of the game since none of them teach you the importance of good active skills, Washington and Genghis Khan are early game one-men armies but don’t have much else to bring to the team. It makes the game trivial until about Discovery, and then you’ll slow down to a crawl if you haven’t gotten any Commanders or other core team players. And that is why I’m not pressing restore purchases until I reach Gunpowder. I’m not getting good at the game by using them in this game, unlike with for example EW6 Blucher who’s a great team player. |
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Post by stoic on Jul 30, 2020 7:34:04 GMT
It is a very good point! For players with IAPs early campaigns are often a trivial matter...
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Post by SolidLight on Jul 30, 2020 8:37:51 GMT
And I'm done! |
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Post by andrei on Jul 30, 2020 8:54:56 GMT
It is a very good point! For players with IAPs early campaigns are often a trivial matter... If speaking about IAPs in EW5 those were extremely useful for the conquests which are painfully boring |
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