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Post by HangryBird on Apr 10, 2021 7:58:54 GMT
I'd starve/freeze myself to death. No way the French aren't going to retreat from Moscow. If you won't, then you would have no army to fight. Exactly, that's why the French have to retreat.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2021 8:30:24 GMT
I said typically. There were some major US victories. Britain mainly withdrew because of economic concerns. They wanted to reestablish trade with the US and end wartime taxation. It would be bad for the economy if Britain got bogged down in prolonged combat in America's interior. They didn't want a repeat of the Revolutionary War. Now, your turn. How could you had prevented the French fall at Moscow (Napoleonic wars) Napoleon basically didn't follow his own strategy, he began marching like the Stronger of the two ( he did opposite during Austerlitz). He should have somehow got a desicive battle enough to break the Willingness of Russians to fight.
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Post by John Marston on Apr 10, 2021 12:40:23 GMT
Now, your turn. How could you had prevented the French fall at Moscow (Napoleonic wars) Napoleon basically didn't follow his own strategy, he began marching like the Stronger of the two ( he did opposite during Austerlitz). He should have somehow got a desicive battle enough to break the Willingness of Russians to fight. Looking at this point, it is actually precise. He never won a major victory against the Russians.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2021 15:38:44 GMT
Napoleon basically didn't follow his own strategy, he began marching like the Stronger of the two ( he did opposite during Austerlitz). He should have somehow got a desicive battle enough to break the Willingness of Russians to fight. Looking at this point, it is actually precise. He never won a major victory against the Russians. Borodino?
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Post by HangryBird on Apr 10, 2021 18:24:59 GMT
Looking at this point, it is actually precise. He never won a major victory against the Russians. Borodino? Napoleon won a victory there, but it wasn't major in the sense that the Russians didn't suffer major damage to their army, who retreated in good order and condition.
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Post by HangryBird on Apr 10, 2021 21:01:57 GMT
Okay I lied, Kliment Voroshilov will appear in part 2.
Leningrad or Bust Part 1
Wilhelm Ritter Von Leeb could not believe what he had just heard. This could jeopardize the entire offensive towards Leningrad.
"Generalfeldmarschall Leeb," repeated his chief of staff, Kurt Brennecke, "Colonel General Ernst Busch is reporting a large enemy counterattack at Staraya Russa. He does not believe 16th army can hold their position without reinforcements. Should we divert forces from the 4th Panzer Army to assist him?"
Leeb weighed his options. First, the safe option: He could have Busch conduct a fighting withdrawal and let the enemy counterattack peter out and then, divert the 56th Panzer Corps to aid a counterattack of their own against the overextended enemy. However, doing so would delay his own planned offensive to cut off Leningrad, which could be fatal, giving the Russians more time to move troops and prepare defensive fortifications. Or he could gamble: Busch would still conduct a fighting withdrawal, but the 56th Panzer Corps would stay with the 4th Panzer Army and launch their offensive to cut off Leningrad. Instead, he would have to rely on the reinforcements sent by Army Group Center: the 39th Panzer Corps under Colonel General Hermann Hoth. They were already engaged against enemy forces in the South, so it would take longer for them to arrive and assist Busch. That could allow the enemy to punch deeper in their lines to the south and threaten their supply lines. Thus, the question was what was worth more: Leningrad or his supply lines.
Leeb would never admit it out loud, but he wanted some glory for himself. During the invasion of Poland, he was in command of the forces defending the German border with France. During the invasion of France, he was sieging the Maginot Line while Panzer commanders like Hoth and Guderian were praised for their mad dash to the sea, encircling the Allies in Belgium. If he could take Leningrad, he was certain that the Fuhrer and others would reap praise upon him for meeting his objective and taking what was known as the birthplace of the revolution. Plus, he was informed that the Fuhrer was planning to give him a 250,000 Reichsmark check as a birthday present to reward him for his "loyalty". Taking Leningrad would certainly make Hitler's present more generous. Leeb made up his mind: Leningrad or Bust!
"No," responded, Leeb, "Inform Busch to conduct a fighting withdrawal; he will be relieved by the 39th Panzer Corps once they finish off the enemy in their sector."
Panzer Vor! Erich von Manstein had received his orders to breakthrough the Soviet line around Luga and hit the eastern flank of the Soviet defenses holding up the 41st Panzer Corps further northwest. From there, the 56th Panzer Corps would push over the Neva River and hit the last defensive line of Leningrad from the East, cutting the city off from reinforcements. Then, all they had to do was kick down the door to Leningrad and its whole rotten structure would come crashing down.
Busch was furious at Leeb's decision. Couldn't he see that the enemy's counterattack was a serious threat? For God's sake, the 10th Infantry Corps was nearly overwhelmed and trapped against Lake Ilmen. Had Leeb told him that he could expect reinforcements from their own Army Group, he might have been a bit too confident in 16th Army's ability to stand their ground. However, all he could do now was to hold out until Hoth could relieve him, like some damsel in distress.
Anyone want to guess the POD?
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Post by John Marston on Apr 11, 2021 5:59:24 GMT
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Post by HangryBird on Apr 11, 2021 6:01:37 GMT
Point of Divergence. What changed/diverged from OTL.
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Post by John Marston on Apr 11, 2021 6:04:09 GMT
Point of Divergence. What changed/diverged from OTL. Busch army was annihilated?
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Post by HangryBird on Apr 11, 2021 6:06:08 GMT
Point of Divergence. What changed/diverged from OTL. Busch army was annihilated? Nope. They weren't annihilated. They conducted a fighting withdrawal. This is OTL. Here is the POD: In OTL, Leeb panicked and diverted the 56th Panzer Corps to support the 16th Army. The POD is that Leeb instead decides to not divert the 56th Panzer Corps and thus, the offensive to cut off Leningrad is now moving quicker.
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Post by HangryBird on Apr 11, 2021 7:11:58 GMT
Any predictions? Will Leeb’s gamble pay off or will it prove to be a huge mistake?
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Post by John Marston on Apr 11, 2021 7:15:34 GMT
Any predictions? Will Leeb’s gamble pay off or will it prove to be a huge mistake? A huge mistake. Because Leningrad was already under huge pressure from Germany and Finland as sending extra forces there is not really useful.
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Post by HangryBird on Apr 11, 2021 23:53:48 GMT
Plans for future parts of Leningrad or Bust!
Part 2
- POV: Voroshilov
- POV: Stalin and Zhukov
- POV: Leeb
Part 3
- POV: Voroshilov and Zhukov
- POV: Manstein
- POV: Busch
Part 4
- POV: Leeb
- POV: Hitler
- POV: Stalin
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Post by STILETT0 on Apr 12, 2021 0:41:44 GMT
Plans for future parts of Leningrad or Bust!
Part 2
- POV: Voroshilov
- POV: Stalin and Zhukov
- POV: Leeb
Part 3
- POV: Voroshilov and Zhukov
- POV: Manstein
- POV: Busch
Part 4
- POV: Leeb
- POV: Hitler
- POV: Stalin
i dont think I was in the area. Timoshenko had to clean my mess of the Winter War up. Oh, wait. Northwestern Direction. Nevermind.
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Post by HangryBird on Apr 12, 2021 0:47:18 GMT
Plans for future parts of Leningrad or Bust!
Part 2
- POV: Voroshilov
- POV: Stalin and Zhukov
- POV: Leeb
Part 3
- POV: Voroshilov and Zhukov
- POV: Manstein
- POV: Busch
Part 4
- POV: Leeb
- POV: Hitler
- POV: Stalin
i dont think I was in the area. Timoshenko had to clean my mess of the Winter War up. Oh, wait. Northwestern Direction. Nevermind. Yep, You got sacked because you failed to stop Leeb from encircling Leningrad.
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