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Post by Gerd von Rundstedt on Apr 12, 2021 13:32:49 GMT
I like Don Quixote de la Mancha's idea so we can do these for the generals who we think are very underrated (or overrated [please avoid Patton and Monty])! Heinrici was one of the greatest generals of the war, great in attack, brilliant in defense. He destroyed the Soviets on all of their offensives, with virtually no casualties. He nearly perfected the elastic defense, and slowed down the Soviets (and while highly outnumbered) more than we would think humanly possible. The only reason (I think) he isn't better is that, as Samual Mitcham says, he was "as charismatic as a 20-pound sack of fertilizer." He was perhaps one of the greatest commanders of the war. |
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Post by HangryBird on Apr 12, 2021 14:34:22 GMT
I like Don Quixote de la Mancha 's idea so we can do these for the generals who we think are very underrated (or overrated [please avoid Patton and Monty])! Heinrici was one of the greatest generals of the war, great in attack, brilliant in defense. He destroyed the Soviets on all of their offensives, with virtually no casualties. He nearly perfected the elastic defense, and slowed down the Soviets (and while highly outnumbered) more than we would think humanly possible. The only reason (I think) he isn't better is that, as Samual Mitcham says, he was "as charismatic as a 20-pound sack of fertilizer." He was perhaps one of the greatest commanders of the war. I think you are exaggerating it, but yes, Heinrici was pretty good on defense. What would you do to make Heinrici better though? |
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Post by andrei on Apr 12, 2021 15:11:56 GMT
He destroyed the Soviets on all of their offensives, with virtually no casualties. How did Soviets win this war? It was necessary to put Heinrici here and there would be no chance for stupid Soviets who were only capable of wining by spending unlimited manpower. |
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Post by stoic on Apr 12, 2021 19:11:12 GMT
He destroyed the Soviets on all of their offensives, with virtually no casualties. How did Soviets win this war? It was necessary to put Heinrici here and there would be no chance for stupid Soviets who were only capable of wining by spending unlimited manpower. Especially if we take into account the correlation of forces on Eastern front. June 1941 1:1.4 June 1942 1.42:1 June 1943 1.71 : 1 |
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Post by Gerd von Rundstedt on Apr 12, 2021 19:13:33 GMT
How did Soviets win this war? It was necessary to put Heinrici here and there would be no chance for stupid Soviets who were only capable of wining by spending unlimited manpower. Especially if we take into account the correlation of forces on Eastern front. June 1941 1:1.4 June 1942 Heinrici be talking '44 and '45. |
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Post by stoic on Apr 12, 2021 19:15:33 GMT
Especially if we take into account the correlation of forces on Eastern front. June 1941 1:1.4 June 1942 Heinrici be talking '44 and '45. June 1944 2.17:1 |
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Post by stoic on Apr 12, 2021 19:17:05 GMT
Especially if we take into account the correlation of forces on Eastern front. June 1941 1:1.4 June 1942 Heinrici be talking '44 and '45. June 1944 2.17:1 April 1945 3.22 : 1 |
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Post by Gerd von Rundstedt on Apr 12, 2021 19:17:11 GMT
Heinrici be talking '44 and '45. June 1944 2.17:1 In favor of... |
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Post by stoic on Apr 12, 2021 19:25:18 GMT
Of course in favor of USSR, because system of war production and mobilization was in USSR far superior than in Germany And here is Heinrici's last "success" against Soviet forces "As soon as he arrived at Himmler's headquarters, however, Heinrici found himself thrust into a desperate battle for control of the island fortress of Kustrin at the confluence of the Oder and Warta Rivers. Beginning on 22 March, Colonel General V. I. Chuikov's 8th Guards Army had isolated the fortress in an effort to widen its bridgehead over the Oder. At Hitler's insistence, on 27 March Ninth German Army launched a four-division counterattack from Frankfurt-am-Oder northward toward Kustrin. The 20th and 25th Panzer-Grenadier Divisions, the Fuehrer Escort Division, and the ad hoc Panzer Division Munchenberg caught the Soviets by surprise and advanced to the outskirts of Kustrin. General Chuikov found himself bracketed by German artillery that killed an aide and wounded one of his principal staff officers. Yet the attack rapidly lost momentum, and the Germans were decimated in open terrain" David Glantz "How the Red Army stopped Hitler" |
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Post by Gerd von Rundstedt on Apr 12, 2021 19:33:40 GMT
Of course in favor of USSR, because system of war production and mobilization was in USSR far superior than in Germany And here is Heinrici's last "success" against Soviet forces "As soon as he arrived at Himmler's headquarters, however, Heinrici found himself thrust into a desperate battle for control of the island fortress of Kustrin at the confluence of the Oder and Warta Rivers. Beginning on 22 March, Colonel General V. I. Chuikov's 8th Guards Army had isolated the fortress in an effort to widen its bridgehead over the Oder. At Hitler's insistence, on 27 March Ninth German Army launched a four-division counterattack from Frankfurt-am-Oder northward toward Kustrin. The 20th and 25th Panzer-Grenadier Divisions, the Fuehrer Escort Division, and the ad hoc Panzer Division Munchenberg caught the Soviets by surprise and advanced to the outskirts of Kustrin. General Chuikov found himself bracketed by German artillery that killed an aide and wounded one of his principal staff officers. Yet the attack rapidly lost momentum, and the Germans were decimated in open terrain" David Glantz "How the Red Army stopped Hitler" I highly recommend Samual Mitcham's essay on him. I'll see if I can post a link. I think they released a preview of the chapter. |
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Post by stoic on Apr 12, 2021 19:35:43 GMT
Of course in favor of USSR, because system of war production and mobilization was in USSR far superior than in Germany And here is Heinrici's last "success" against Soviet forces "As soon as he arrived at Himmler's headquarters, however, Heinrici found himself thrust into a desperate battle for control of the island fortress of Kustrin at the confluence of the Oder and Warta Rivers. Beginning on 22 March, Colonel General V. I. Chuikov's 8th Guards Army had isolated the fortress in an effort to widen its bridgehead over the Oder. At Hitler's insistence, on 27 March Ninth German Army launched a four-division counterattack from Frankfurt-am-Oder northward toward Kustrin. The 20th and 25th Panzer-Grenadier Divisions, the Fuehrer Escort Division, and the ad hoc Panzer Division Munchenberg caught the Soviets by surprise and advanced to the outskirts of Kustrin. General Chuikov found himself bracketed by German artillery that killed an aide and wounded one of his principal staff officers. Yet the attack rapidly lost momentum, and the Germans were decimated in open terrain" David Glantz "How the Red Army stopped Hitler" I highly recommend Samual Mitcham's essay on him. I'll see if I can post a link. I think they released a preview of the chapter. David M. Glantz is the leading Western expert on Eastern front with worldwide reputation. There is hardly any higher authority on the subject... |
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Post by Gerd von Rundstedt on Apr 12, 2021 19:40:11 GMT
I highly recommend Samual Mitcham's essay on him. I'll see if I can post a link. I think they released a preview of the chapter. David M. Glantz is the leading Western expert on Eastern front with worldwide reputation. There is hardly any higher authority on the subject... I am not doubting him, nor saying that Mitcham is a better source. Merely saying that I like Mitcham's essay. |
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Post by stoic on Apr 12, 2021 19:48:32 GMT
David M. Glantz is the leading Western expert on Eastern front with worldwide reputation. There is hardly any higher authority on the subject... I am not doubting him, nor saying that Mitcham is a better source. Merely saying that I like Mitcham's essay. That is the problem of many modern studies. As Jonathan House put it: "many are trying to explain how Germany lost the war instead of how USSR won it". |
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Post by stoic on Apr 12, 2021 20:23:27 GMT
All memoirs of German generals after the WW2 had 3 unchallenged statements (no matter who was the author):
1. I am brilliant.
2. Hitler is a fool.
3. Soviets are too many.
"So, I fought bravely and always had an excellent plan how to win, but because of stupid orders and numerous Soviets I was forced to give ground"
And, what is interesting many take it at its face value without even analyzing it. But when someone really tries to analyze it, - he comes to conclusions that Soviets were not so numerous on this or that particular front, that Hitler's orders were not so stupid (and not especially Hitler's) and that our brilliant and honourable German generals were not always honourable and frankly speaking not always brilliant...
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Post by HangryBird on Apr 12, 2021 20:26:41 GMT
All memoirs of German generals after the WW2 had 3 unchallenged statements (no matter who was the author): 1. I am brilliant. 2. Hitler is a fool. 3. Soviets are too many. "So, I fought bravely and always had an excellent plan how to win, but because of stupid orders and numerous Soviets I was forced to give ground" And, what is interesting many take it without even analyzing it. But when someone really tries to analyze it, - he comes to conclusions that Soviets were not so numerous on this or that particular front, that Hitler's orders were not so stupid (and not especially Hitler's) and that our brilliant and honourable German generals were not always honourable and frankly speaking not always brilliant... Very true, I'll add a number 4 though: I never committed any war crimes; that was all the SS. Clean Wehrmacht myth is still a thing unfortunately. |
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