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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Jan 7, 2022 21:22:12 GMT
Okay, so most of you who have a full 8 general lineup have Pompey as one of your infantry generals. Well, quite obviously, he's the forum's favourite and I don't want to hear anymore about him being better than Vercingetorix. HE'S NOT!! Then you also probably have Vercingetorix too, if you already have two gold infantry generals but not Vercingetorix, I don't want to talk to you anymore. Then, for the third spot (you all have 3 infantry generals, right?), you've most probably chosen Crassus, of maybe Labienus for some.
But, the point of this thread is to talk about alternatives. Not for Vercingetorix though, there's no alternatives for him. Alternatives for Crassus or Labienus. Although not even really alternatives, but options for the third infnatry general spot anyways. Basically I just want to compare different generals and point out options, some consider...unnatural.
Here are some alternatives for Crassus/Labienus that come to my mind:
Sertorius, Burebista, Bato, (Agrippa), Cicero(!!), Cassius, Chen, Flaminius, Ambiorix
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Post by jonblend on Jan 8, 2022 1:20:46 GMT
For me it's clearly Bato who is up there with Labienus and Crassus on tier2 infantry generals. He's as fast as Pompey and Crassus and as has all the defensive capabilities of Vercingetorix or Pompey. If you prefer offensive, then Labienus is your man against units in the open fields and archers while Crassus excels against cities and their garrison. In this game, infantry units tend to have more of an inherent defensive nature (slow, counterattack bonus, increased terrain avoid effect for legionnaires, recruitable at town center) so Bato plays into the strengths of this role and even cancels out the movement disadvantage. And he can have the Banner of Eagle (Shield Wall and March) if Pompey takes Jupiter (the one that improves inf com and plain fighting).
imo, the other guys you mentioned are either substantially weaker than these three at their respective primary "specialization" or they give away too much by trying to be a jack of all trades. And I find it hard to support the Roar generals with items or oration if I could give it to cavalry or archers instead.
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Post by run4glory on Jan 8, 2022 17:06:34 GMT
To the thread creator: Can you give arguments how Pompey is not better than Verci? You may argue he is defensively slightly better, but in terms of offensive capability, he is just no match to Pompey in almost every aspect, out of which, most importantly, would be tactical maneuverability due to slow movement and hence also not synergizing well with faster units like cavalry generals, because he just can't keep up. If you could choose only one (non-IAP) inf general, I can hardly imagine you'd pick Verci, to be honest. And to silver tier inf generals, also from me a clear vote for Bato, for all the reasons jonblend mentioned. Pretty clear. |
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Jan 8, 2022 18:02:16 GMT
To the thread creator: Can you give arguments how Pompey is not better than Verci? You may argue he is defensively slightly better, but in terms of offensive capability, he is just no match to Pompey in almost every aspect, out of which, most importantly, would be tactical maneuverability due to slow movement and hence also not synergizing well with faster units like cavalry generals, because he just can't keep up. If you could choose only one (non-IAP) inf general, I can hardly imagine you'd pick Verci, to be honest. And to silver tier inf generals, also from me a clear vote for Bato, for all the reasons jonblend mentioned. Pretty clear. Okay, let's compare: Jungle Fighting = Plain Fighting While plains are more common, jungles offer protection and jungle fighting gives a bigger damage bonus and is cheaper. So we can take out those two as well as Shield Wall, both have it. So now the comparison is about their talents and Ambush + Roar vs Infantry Leader + March. Now let's compare their talents. Infantry tactics is an alright talent, but it's not that good alone without Roar. But basically, it gives a 5% damage buff when attacking. Fearless isn't the best talent either, but probably still a bit underrated. It still works after you get a new stack, so you will have it activated quite often actually. Talents pretty equal, I have to check how much legion damage effects damage though. But I understand if you argue that Pompey's is slightly better, but only slightly. Then their two major offensive skills, Roar and Infantry Leader. Now, either one of them will be your main infantry general and if it is Vercingetorix, I think it's reasonable to give him the Laurel Crown. Atleast you won't be giving it to Pompeius. If you insist on not giving Vercingetorix the Laurel Crown even if he's your main infantry, you still have the Golden Ring and as Gerd von Rundstedt has many times pointed out, you can well have high morale on strong generals without any items. Anyways with high morale, Roar gives a 12.5% damage buff at level 5 and Infantry Leader a 25% buff to overall damage on your turn. But, to add to this Vercingetorix has 9 points in infantry which adds probably atleast 3-4% damage, so let's say for Vercingetorix +16% damage at high morale and +25% damage for Pompeius on his turn. To me that's a slight win for Vercingetorix. Counterattacks do count for over half of your generals' damage unless you sit in a corner. Even without the Laurel Crown, their offensive capabilities are atleast equal. Also, I remember andrei poimting out that infantry tactics also works on your turn. That would make Vercingetorix even better. What's remaining is Ambush and March. From that I can make a conclusion that: Vercingetorix's damage > Pompeius Vercingetorix's survivability > Pompeius Vercingetorix's speed < Pompeius I don't know about you, but speed isn't really a problem in campaigns for me, especially after you train your infantry. |
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Post by andrei on Jan 8, 2022 18:28:48 GMT
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Jan 8, 2022 18:34:31 GMT
Well that proves my point, doesn't it? |
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Post by andrei on Jan 8, 2022 18:40:21 GMT
Well that proves my point, doesn't it? I am not the best person to judge as I estimate March as one of the most important skills in the game. And I understand that many players don't think it is important at all. Consequently I am on Pompey's side. But I like Vercy as well. It's just not too many occasions I will choose him instead of Pompey as my Commander is Infantry gen. |
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Jan 8, 2022 18:51:36 GMT
Well that proves my point, doesn't it? I am not the best person to judge as I estimate March as one of the most important skills in the game. And I understand that many players don't think it is important at all. Consequently I am on Pompey's side. But I like Vercy as well. It's just not too many occasions I will choose him instead of Pompey as my Commander is Infantry gen. Well yeah, it really comes done to personal opinions on march. I don't have anything against march, but I just love Vercingetorix's damage and survivability. |
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Post by run4glory on Jan 8, 2022 18:56:02 GMT
Yes, agree mostly with what you say so far, I would value Pompey's talent higher, but I admit to not be familiar with Talent Fearless, because I also don't quite know the influence of legion damage. But as you said, the comparison is determined by Leader + March vs Ambush + Roar, where former absolutely wins, in my opinion. Hard to compare 1 by 1, that's why I would just look at the whole picture overall: Due to March, Pompey is 4 (or 6 with banner) faster, which is consistently 2 hexes. The result is that Pompey synergizes greatly with all blitzkrieg units, which (depends on your playstyle ofc) is still a very good strategy in campaigns, and (obviously) the ONLY strategy in any conquest. He just fits better, gives more value towards your final goal, at least for me. But ofc, you can also choose not to, and to stick close to your heavier units. You can choose to stay more in survival mode, you can choose to retreat very quickly if Pompey is damaged. Overall the keyword is flexibility. Not to mention that all the theoretical damage analysis matters only if you actually can move your general to a good hex to attack a "good unit", find a hex where you are not flanked (which is automatically -25%) and so on and so forth. Verci is more defensive, but as I hinted, if the distances on the maps are far, this just buys you nothing. What does he tank, if he can't even run fast enough to the front? Roar is of course very item dependent. In Verci's particular case, as infs attack capability is just naturally weak, due to his slow movement he is flanked way too often, I think the only way to make use of roar is laurel crown. But then, well that takes away a laurel crown from another (probably cav) gen... On the other hand, infantry commander not only just plainly boosts the attack by a lot (yes, he takes damage as well, but mostly you don't attack the 5 stack huo with your inf gen, and taking damage against bowman is negligible, come on), but also gives a lot of these "clutch moments" (kill city, take city, and maybe even kill another defender on some neighbouring hex). Yes, now that you can call luck, but if it happens, it almost always has a significant impact on the whole battle, while Verci has just a chance of 0% of achieving this. Lastly I just wanna mention that this discussion is not too important, simply because the answer to all players is to get both  It just results in us recommending beginners to first prioritize on Pompey, but undoubtedly should afterwards buy Verci as well. I just discuss for the sake of discussing, because it is fun to discuss about a game that you like lol. Edit after reading your argument about "your turn" vs "your turn + counterattack": In my opinion, yes 25% on my turn > 16% attack or something on my turn + counter attack. In my humble opinion (^^ wanna emphasize to not sound offensive) I think you are overanalyzing plain numbers,while I think about tactics and objectives. You see, I call a strategy in a campaign great if I "don't even have to deal half the damage" and win because I successfully blitzkrieged them. +16% damage on counterattack doesn't convince me because I cannot choose on which enemy unit this damage is dealt. I don't bother with the enemy's light inf at all if I can just run past him. |
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Post by run4glory on Jan 8, 2022 18:58:03 GMT
Ah, while I wrote my last post, 5 new posts have appeared and the discussion is in a different state, I guess that sometimes happens in this forum  |
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Jan 8, 2022 19:47:44 GMT
Ah, while I wrote my last post, 5 new posts have appeared and the discussion is in a different state, I guess that sometimes happens in this forum (Quoting this to avoid long quotes) I agree that there isn't much fo compare, you should get both of them and probably even Pompey first, because you don't have items and upgrades early game. I see why you value March and Infantry Commander, skills that affect your turn. However I think it's important to point out that in the three hardest/most important game modes - campaign, decisive battle and hero legend - the enemy's turn and survivability are very important. In campaign, I feel like (I haven't made any statistics) that even more important than moving fast from city to city, is to repel the attacks of strong generals and deal some solid damage on them on their turn as well. I probably don't need to talk about DB and hero legend, mopping up all enemies is the thing in those game modes. Vercingetorix's mobility hasn't really been a problem for me, except maybe in conquest, but I wouldn't judge generals based on conquest. |
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Post by run4glory on Jan 8, 2022 20:08:41 GMT
Sure, I agree, and the conquest should really be regarded as a minor point. I don't value them much either, they are for fun and farming and stuff, but I would never rate generals or also players by how well they perform in conquest. I also agree that blitzkrieg becomes extremely hard at the latest stages of the game, if not exclusively a "last-minute-thing" so occasionally secure a 3-star. I respect your opinion and mathematical analysis, although I don't agree with your conclusion and still think Pompey is better. But, it's important to bring up the arguments such that the reader decides for himself. However, in the end, I want to give new players the advice to take these general comparisons with a grain of salt. The problem is that we are isolating the generals and compare them, although they play in a team and in the grand scheme of things, the result can be flipped over. I struggled to judge skills like Roar, because they are so item dependent. Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov argues in his analysis that you should use a laurel crown for Verci, but of course, that takes away a laurel crown for the rest of the team.) But then, one can say, how unfair, you are giving a laurel crown to Verci and not anything to Pompey, I give Pompey the uniform, now its 16% vs not 25 but 40%, but then probably comes a counter-argument, well the uniform should be given to someone close to Verci instead, making it 31% vs 40%, and that argument again has its flaws, and so on and so forth. In short, the point is that analyzing things in theory requires simplification to achieve objectivity, we can only take things from the big, real world in our small artificial world to compare them. But your intuition, your gut feeling, very often understands much better how things in the real world are. That's why, when it comes to evaluation of generals, you should read other people's opinions and take them into account, but not neglect your own intuition. |
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Post by pug on Jan 9, 2022 12:45:24 GMT
Pure mathematical numbers and formulas are great as a basis on which to start the comparison, but pure math is too simple in this case.
Pompeius has slight advantage over Vercingetorix by math. But both have different purposes. The skill infantry commander gives double damage any time you attack. Roar can be triggered even when you are attacked. Pompeius is by skills (infantry commander and march) an offensive infantry commander, while Vercingetorix is by ambush and roar a defensive type of infantry commander. So when do you want whom in your team. Conquests: clearly Pompeius. We need offence to conquer everything in short time Campaigns: most campaigns are offensive and a time limit in which to achieve it. So against clearly Pompeius. Exception are those campaign when you have to hold your position. Then it is time for Vercingetorix. He alone can more or less hold a city. Hero Legend: the same as campaigns, even more often offensive (I am in chapter 7 now, so might be different later). Once again Pompeius rules Decisive battles: And now comes the time for Vercingetorix to shine. AI moves generals in the middle of trouble, they get attacked several times per round - moral is king and roar hits all the time. But in all cases you should have 2 great infantry generals - and so use both all around the clock. Ok, no question 2 is who is the best substitute for both. A defensive infantry general should have Roar + Ambush or Shield Wall. An offensive should have Infantry Commander + March (+ shield wall).
The replacement for Pompeius is Crassus. Yes, no infantry commander. But what kind of offensive do you also need? A city killer with Tunnel. And in campaings and in hero legend you get war gear mostly on infantry. After Crassus probably Labienus. The replacement for Vercingetorix is for me Bato. With his talent and skills put him into a city to hold it. |
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Post by Erich von Manstein on Jan 10, 2022 8:54:24 GMT
I got Bato as my second infantry general and I am happy with his performance. Pretty tanky and not terrible damage. I didn't find a noticeable difference in speed but perhaps he just needs some investment.
As an infantry general, I don't think Vercingetorix deserves a morale item. Belisarius has one and Mithridates/my commander gets the other. However, we can give him an oration. Oration lasts 3 turns so we should be able to cover him.
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Post by Gerd von Rundstedt on Jan 10, 2022 13:56:41 GMT
Okay, my four slots for third infantry are these: Sertorius - For obvious reasons. Essentially a better, slower Crassus IMO. And because I don't value speed much (read: at all), Sertorius gets the spot for city cracker. Burebista - See this: european-war-4.boards.net/post/307987 The conquest option. Scouting makes life a heck of a lot easier, and the anti-archer mechanisms and roar are simply fantastic in archer general heavy conquests like Caesar Time or Rome and Han. He loses value in campaigns just due to scouting being less needed and a city cracker being better. Agrippa - Essentially Burebista, but trade Scouting and MF for insane Naval capabilities. Finally, my personal favorite, Cassius. He is an ABSOLUTE BOSS for non-city campaigns. Extra cheap, has two great skills and an amazing talent, really good at hitting geerals due to both ambush and Rumor, he is amazing. Plus, he looks really really cool. In fact, he is essentially a worse Verc with Jungle, Ambush, Formation equal to fearless. This means that Verc has Roar, Shield Wall, and 2 stars on his Rumor. For half the price. And I cannot tell you how good Rumor is when paired with something like Ambush. Paulus had it right with Pedius. |
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It just results in us recommending beginners to first prioritize on Pompey, but undoubtedly should afterwards buy Verci as well. I just discuss for the sake of discussing, because it is fun to discuss about a game that you like lol.
