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Post by Warlord247 on Dec 3, 2022 6:12:40 GMT
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Post by Warlord247 on Dec 3, 2022 6:14:05 GMT
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Post by Theron of Acragas on Dec 3, 2022 7:50:36 GMT
A pretty interesting read, good job π and you have some good points, though I don't agree with all of your conclusions. I don't have time to go into a lot of depth, but if we very roughly sum it up, your essay is basically "capitalism caused slavery, slavery is profitable = slavery good, slavery isn't profitable = slavery bad". It might seem minor, but it's an important distinction - greed (often with a side of racism) causes slavery, not capitalism, which is why slavery has existed for about as long as people and in every possible economic system. The concept of slavery is actually antithetical to capitalism, which is based on freedom to make your own economic choices. Slavery can exist in a consciously capitalist system *only* if slaves are viewed (and you made this point) as not people, or at least as lesser people. Second, you claim that slavery ended because it wasn't profitable. This claim isn't well founded. The abolitionist movement gathered steam in the late 18th century even though slavery was still profitable. I don't know statistics for the US, but when Britain and the US banned the slave trade in 1807, Britain took a significant hit to revenue and the Caribbean economy pretty much collapsed. It took another half-century and a war to end slavery in the US, because politics in the south were controlled by slave owners, but abolition was driven by a concept of morality that grew independently of profit.
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Post by Theron of Acragas on Dec 3, 2022 7:52:28 GMT
A couple errors, by the way: "slaveholders choosing overseers who were more sparing with the lash" - I think you meant the opposite. Also, "affect" vs "effect"
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Post by Josip Broz Tito on Dec 3, 2022 8:31:13 GMT
Alright. I am far from an expert on this subject, and I honestly just quickly skimmed through the paper, but I can at least partially agrees with your view that slavery was an effect of capitalism.
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Post by Warlord247 on Dec 3, 2022 14:05:45 GMT
Theron of Acragas thanks for reading since I have the time, and I think I can do it well, I'm going to address a few of your points 1. The distinction between capitalism and greed is a point that you could definitely make a good argument. My three points against it are: this paper is based on American style slavery (the paper doesn't state it explicitly, but that's cause it's already known by the teacher so I didn't think to, sorry!) Which is very streamlined form of slavery that is based on making the most profit. My second is that it wasn't originally a race thing in the United States, with their being white slaves and African and Amerindian owners up until about the 1720s, so it explicitly just about labour. And finally, your definition of capitalism is its idealized form, which as we know basically no ideology actual maintains. If you were to expand the topic further into neo-slavery and modern day slavery you would see that the two are still very much connected. (I planned on doing thay but ran out of time, hence why this is titled "first edition") 2. I completely agree that the end of slavery wasn't caused by a lack of profitability, but I also don't say that it was in the paper. I say that because the North makes no benefit from the expansion of slavery, they begin their abolishonist movement. Here's the direct passage from my paper: With horrendous acts of slave exploitation expanding and worsening in the South an abolitionist movement began growing in the Northern states, however it was hampered by one major detail: as mentioned before, African slaves and their descendants were not considered human by Americans. As such, it was easy for Southerners and Northerners alike to pretend the atrocities being committed were against not a fellow person, but an βotherβ and as such does not trigger their desire to act honorably as Adam Smith says, since the slaves are not their equal, much less their neighbor. This view would change with the rise of significant freedmen and run-away slaves as abolishionist leaders, such as Frederick Douglass. With examples such as Douglass, it became easier for those in the North to view African slaves as people, Though still not as equals. This, along with the fact that the North did not rely on slavery for their industries, would lead to the growth of the Northern abolition movement. In the South however, slavery was the driving force of every aspect of their economy, and as such they were unable and unwilling to do what was considered βmorally justβ and free the slaves. Their own desires of wealth were strong enough to overrule their impartial spectator, for the violence and injustice of our own selfish passions are sometimes sufficient to induce the man within the beast to make a report very different from what the real circumstances of the case are capable of authorising. The South became paranoid of the North abolishing slavery, and by proxy wrecking the Southern economy. These fears would reach a boiling point, and result in the attempted secession of the South, done to protect the institution of slavery, and in doing so insuring the viability of their economy; this attempt at secession would start the American Civil War. The war initially progressed in the Confederacyβs favor, despite them being outpaced by the Union in the production of every single material beneficial to the war. One of their main advantages was their continued export of cotton to France and Britain, and it seemed possible one of the powers would join the war on the side of the Confederacy. I said about the same thing you did on this point, just with more words. Anyways, thanks a lot for reading! I'm interested in how you'll respond to the points I brought up (P.S thank you for catching those grammer issues, hopefully my teacher doesn't take off too many points)
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Post by ππ³π°π΅π΄π¬πΊ on Dec 3, 2022 17:32:48 GMT
Nice work Warlord247 - and a nice done to share it here in the forum to discuss Your thesis. One thing just for the style: You start with a cite - very nice style - why isn't it quoted as citisation? (and the footnote belongs close to the cite or after the reference) I am somehow with the other critics: capitalism -> slavery is difficult to state because capitalism as term is much younger than slavery. (Although which kind of economy had the ancient greek or romans?) If You use capitalism as phrase for "american economy" you are right. Your point of how slave usage fired the differences between the north and south is very good explained. One more note: Imo: Americindians were considered as much less effectife labour compared to african slaves.. This leads to export the native slaves and import black slaves. Disclaimer: I'm not american and my knowledge of amrican history is minimal, so excuse me if I'm completly wrong.
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Post by Warlord247 on Dec 3, 2022 17:56:52 GMT
Nice work Warlord247 - and a nice done to share it here in the forum to discuss Your thesis. One thing just for the style: You start with a cite - very nice style - why isn't it quoted as citisation? (and the footnote belongs close to the cite or after the reference) I am somehow with the other critics: capitalism -> slavery is difficult to state because capitalism as term is much younger than slavery. (Although which kind of economy had the ancient greek or romans?) If You use capitalism as phrase for "american economy" you are right. Your point of how slave usage fired the differences between the north and south is very good explained. One more note: Imo: Americindians were considered as much less effectife labour compared to african slaves.. This leads to export the native slaves and import black slaves. Disclaimer: I'm not american and my knowledge of amrican history is minimal, so excuse me if I'm completly wrong. Thanks for the support Trostky! For the first citation I agree that I should have made it a quoted cite. I'm still getting used to Chicago format, so that's just a bit of a growing pain on my part, since you don't "technically" have to quote anything at all, I wasn't sure if I should or not. I'd agree that capitalism didn't cause all slavery, due to how much older slavery is. It's more that it created the more distinct and industrial form of slavery seen in America, which was the focus of the paper. The point is even better proven when expanding into Neo-Slavery and Modern Slavery, but like I said in an earlier post I ran out of time unfortunately, and will including research of both of those, as well as a section on indentured servitude, in a later edition. I agree with your part on the Amerindians, and I cover that a bit with the issue of their common escapes making them a bad investment for the colonists. It wasn't necessarily that the were less effective in general, hence why they were exported to some of the other 13 Colonies and the West Indies, but they escaped if they knew the land, and were more prone to death from European illnesses. I cover the escape as part of its decline in the North, though I probably could have included the bit about illness as well.
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Post by ππ³π°π΅π΄π¬πΊ on Dec 3, 2022 18:57:11 GMT
The qustion about the quotation was just a technical reminder - I like it very much that You start a complicate historic feature with an o-tone, it helped me, as a reader, to get prepared to use a different point of view, common at this time.
Your point of how the transformation from tabacco to cotton changed the usage of slaves agin was really interresting. Introducing a wording for the different phases would be great, but be aware: for me for example, >>modern slavery<< is a term commonnly used to describe the situation of dependent workers today - even they don't realize that they are slaves neither they are called so.
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Post by Warlord247 on Dec 3, 2022 19:37:47 GMT
The qustion about the quotation was just a technical reminder - I like it very much that You start a complicate historic feature with an o-tone, it helped me, as a reader, to get prepared to use a different point of view, common at this time. Your point of how the transformation from tabacco to cotton changed the usage of slaves agin was really interresting. Introducing a wording for the different phases would be great, but be aware: for me for example, >>modern slavery<< is a term commonnly used to describe the situation of dependent workers today - even they don't realize that they are slaves neither they are called so. I know it was a technical question I may not have been clear about that, my bad. The idea of introducing wording for each phase is a good idea. This is how I think I would name it currently: Amerindian Slavery: The enslavement of Amerindians in colonial America, specifically between the start of the Pequot war and the start of the Yamasee war. Pre Cotton gin Slavery: The period of African slavery before the creation of the cotton gin, during which the practice would face a gradual decline Antebellum Slavery: The institution of African slavery between the end of the War of 1812 and the end of the civil war. This period would be the peak of Chattel slavery, with both the domestic slave trade and global cotton trade being massively profitable. Neo-Slavery: The leasing of African American convicts imprisoned by predatory laws to mines, factories, and farms between the end of Reconstruction and the American entry into WWII Modern Slavery: United States corporations using foreign forced labour (such as Chinese sweatshops) in the Modern era I will admit, Modern Slavery is the one I need to learn the most about. I know that it exists, but I don't yet really have a grasp on the topic like I do the other ones.
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Post by ππ³π°π΅π΄π¬πΊ on Dec 3, 2022 20:17:15 GMT
I know it was a technical question I may not have been clear about that, my bad. The idea of introducing wording for each phase is a good idea. This is how I think I would name it currently: Amerindian Slavery: The enslavement of Amerindians in colonial America, specifically between the start of the Pequot war and the start of the Yamasee war. Pre Cotton gin Slavery: The period of African slavery before the creation of the cotton gin, during which the practice would face a gradual decline Antebellum Slavery: The institution of African slavery between the end of the War of 1812 and the end of the civil war. This period would be the peak of Chattel slavery, with both the domestic slave trade and global cotton trade being massively profitable. Neo-Slavery: The leasing of African American convicts imprisoned by predatory laws to mines, factories, and farms between the end of Reconstruction and the American entry into WWII Modern Slavery: United States corporations using foreign forced labour (such as Chinese sweatshops) in the Modern era I will admit, Modern Slavery is the one I need to learn the most about. I know that it exists, but I don't yet really have a grasp on the topic like I do the other ones.Β Don't worry its a nice start: The cite took me on the ride in a different age - I like it. Your wordings are nice, especially Neo-Slavery I like. Maybe to name 'Antebellum Slavery' directly 'Cotton Slavery'. Anyway a nice feature Warlord247 - I learned a new aspect of history to keep in mind. I think the different economical interrests related to slavery are important root of the civil war. I avoid the term "Modern Slavery" - I believe you can write many books without finding an universal definition. IE: For me, having a debt makes you a slave. PS. Reading Adam Smith untill his final conclusions was interresting.
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Post by Theron of Acragas on Dec 4, 2022 13:56:04 GMT
Warlord247, 1. You make some valid points but they aren't really counter-arguments. Let's take them one at a time. - It's quite clear that your essay is about slavery in the US, don't worry. Slavery can and has existed in every governmental and economic system. The form it takes is obviously influenced by the specific circumstances and economic system. A capitalist system leads to a streamlined and profit-driven economy, and the use of slaves is determined by the system. But that doesn't mean that the system is the *cause*.
- Note that I didn't name racism as the primary cause. Racism can be but isn't a necessary accompanying element. It can serve when a philosophical justification becomes necessary. I'd speculate (though I haven't researched) that the increase in racist justifications of slavery coincided with the spread of capitalist ideas as well as Christian abolition movements.
- "Your definition of capitalism is the idealised form, which as we know basically no ideology actual maintains" - not really. While no economy is perfectly capitalist (and probably every economy is partly capitalist), the single most basic principle of a capitalist ideology is the *voluntary* exchange of goods and services. Slavery violates that central principle, which makes it hard to agree with capitalism as the *cause*.
Slavery can coexist with capitalism, but it would be truer to say that it exists *in spite of* capitalist ideology, which it contradicts. For that to work, there has to be a philosophical justification (see point 2). I feel like you may be drawing the wrong conclusions precisely *because* you're only looking at slavery in the context of the US system. But when you look further and see that something exists in different systems, you need to look for a cause outside of the system. A universal problem has a universal cause. That cause, I would argue, is greed. Capitalism recognizes greed/the profit motive as a fact of human nature, and endeavors to exploit that greed in a mutually beneficial way. In that sense, capitalism is also a product of greed. They're connected, but not equivalent ideas. In effect, capitalism and slavery are different branches of the same tree, but neither of them is the root.
2. I feel like you didn't understand what I was trying to say. Your argument is that abolitionism grew when slavery stopped being profitable, and that just isn't true. Capitalism recognizes that most people are driven by greed, rather than morality, however, abolition movements started growing as early as the 17th century, in both the north and south. Slavery was banned in Georgia for about 15 years in the mid-1700s. Some states began passing anti-slavery laws even during the war of independence, and within a decade of the end of the war, every state in the union independently banned the slave trade. Opposition to slavery in the US and UK grew based on morality, despite profitability. Where the profitability argument does apply is to the *other* side (and perhaps this is what you meant and it just isn't expressed well). When abolitionism grew in the north, there were relatively few people with a profit motive to push back against it, so abolition was relatively easy to achieve. In the South though, the economy was so dependent on slaves that there was much more resistance to the same movement, to the extent that it took a war to overcome it.
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Post by Warlord247 on Dec 4, 2022 14:26:52 GMT
Theron of Acragas, I get what you're saying about the greed thing, and I'm actually going to be changing the thesis a bit from capitalism causing slavery to how morality and profit (since profit can exist outside of capitalism) affect slavery to get it ready for publish. As for your second point, that period you talk about where abolition grew in both parts is also covered in my paper, though very briefly, so it's understandable if you missed it. That's the pre cotton gin period, where the profitability of slavery was on a decline. As such, you see a growing abolishonist movement, buts it's not dedicated to the idea of an immediate end to slavery as the antebellum one is. Instead they let slavery die a slow death, and it almost does until the cotton boom. Now I know that that's something I can expand upon more in the second edition, so thank you!
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