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Post by lafluth on Feb 9, 2023 13:12:05 GMT
So I did it just to see… and man was that a grind. Happy I did it but I do not think I will do a large conquest challenge on max challenge again any time soon. See below what it looks like. Few considerations: - No surrender, so the only way to win is to take all cities… one by one - Timur was key to take cities and establish a platform quick enough at the beginning (until I could deploy other strong gens and build defenses) so that I would not get completely swarmed. Lvl 12 IBC and lvl 3 tent was definitely required. But his weakness is morale, so I made sure I never left him in a city to defend as too many attacks on him deplete his morale too quickly, and then he’s toast - Imperative to defend key cities with gens on normal troop and with defensive gear; unlike normal conquest, troops without gens will not be able to defend, especially at the beginning - I pretty much deployed all my decent gens and used pretty much all gear I have, out of necessity - At some stage the game reached a tipping point where I could tell I was not being attacked as violently any more. Enemies sort of defended and stayed in their countries after a while, whereas at the beginning it feels like everyone is coming for you real hard. This might be because some countries declare war on each other after a while? In other words things do get better as you progress - My gens have merc units around lvl 6 to 14 overall, but in many cases the ‘regular’ T4 or T5 units that you can get in cities were actually stronger, being lvl 20. Felt weird to put regular swordsmen or pikemen on my gens but they were definitely stronger with them - I am glad to say none of my gens died  Although I did loose a few units (eg lombard on bob the bruce, hospitallers on some of the support gens, and almost vikings on cnut but managed to save that!) - To my surprise (and of course thanks to justinian as consul and the right policies being available) I was actually able to gradually make allies with a few nations. With 5 to 10 points increments max each time, costing exorbitant amounts when income is so scarce, but it helped a lot, especially mid to late game - All in all this is fun to do once as it kinda changes some of the meta, and it is nice to actually care about gens surviving. If I had lost timur early to mid game I do not think I would have been able to win. That was very palpable and added to making the game exciting. One wrong placement could have ended it all, or at least it felt like it given the intensity and level of aggressiveness of the AI - but yeah, like I said, I do not think I will do it again… the grind is just enormous          |
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Post by nikomachos on Feb 9, 2023 14:54:51 GMT
awesome! i am doing my 2nd run in century of iron atm using the last few countries i hadnt playd at all - 2 birds with one stone kinda stuff. and its going great. but can sb pls help me bc i dont know if small victory rewards are included if i dont fulfill them in challenge. they did get added last time but i also DID fulfill requirments. and i dont know what they are for england sb please tell me or post the exact objectives for small victory in CENTURY OF IRON - for kingdom of ENGLAND. i am currently in a challenge and cant view them without overriding the game. if you have it still locked, maybe you can spare a cloud save for me  |
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Post by nikomachos on Feb 9, 2023 15:00:15 GMT
also out of curiosity did you select 75 or 78
and if 75 which one was only rank dif 2?
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Post by lafluth on Feb 9, 2023 16:10:14 GMT
76 Unit of non player forces lvl 12, and not 14 if maxed. |
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Post by lafluth on Feb 9, 2023 17:37:07 GMT
Small victory for england in century of iron is:
- occupy aberffraw
- occupy scone
- defeat vikings
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Post by nikomachos on Feb 9, 2023 21:06:34 GMT
76 Unit of non player forces lvl 12, and not 14 if maxed. i asked bc i wanted to say that i prefer and recommend "only" minus 30 (instead of 45) in diplomacy at start so that you have time to bribe some important enemies and delay war until later. your selection makes spam easier to beat. mine avoids some of the spam. or at least postpones it so there are only so many enemies coming for you at once at any given time. |
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Post by nikomachos on Feb 9, 2023 21:21:06 GMT
my favorite part of challenge is its so different from normal how AI will turn out bc there used to be trends that are mostly different in challenge and i enjoy the new power dynamics of the same map as refreshing. the extra gold and enemy buffs make it almost a whole new arena. some things i noticed at least with my selection. buyid no longer a big player. hamdani does not collapse immidiatly. pirates your best friends , either bc of diplomacy or bc they keep half the meditaranian sea busy bulgaria does not collapse immidiatly and THE player in centre. and a great ally if diplomacy allows it. HRE still godly but less so denmark ultimate ally for midgame once you paid for their allience. they will prbly be hard to convince to attack hre but easy to attack marca geronis... which also declares war on hre so sneak attack from the back xD magyars used to be a menace now they get vanquished by bulgaria. frankian and iberian small nations without an immidiate enemy are just the worst spammers instead of easy pickings |
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Post by jonblend on Feb 9, 2023 23:28:03 GMT
lafluth , awesome job! Somehow some of my non-key generals always manage to disappear And I agree it's an unique experience that requires full attention but is also very time consuming - not sure though if the rewards are enough compensation for doing this over and over again. "- At some stage the game reached a tipping point where I could tell I was not being attacked as violently any more. Enemies sort of defended and stayed in their countries after a while, whereas at the beginning it feels like everyone is coming for you real hard. This might be because some countries declare war on each other after a while? In other words things do get better as you progress" >I noticed that too and you can see it in the diplomacy profile of each nation, for the first ~30 turns most nations only have you (and their scripted initial rival) as their enemies. Only then Crusaders start attacking Byzantine Empire etc. This makes Pirates, Vikings, Rebels... really helpful. And my opinion for 76/75 points instead of 78: So far, reduced recruitment cost at tavern has convinced me the most. Helps establishing a foothold and self sustaining economy sooner. Allowing for surrender still means you have to capture the capital ~aka capture almost the whole map. Wouldn't recommend. -30 instead of -45 initial diplomacy: not my thing. I end up paying too much for diplomacy research, tribute and gifts instead of economy+troops and relations are still deteriorating. -10 instead of -20 from gifts is helpful in combination with goodwill ambassador but I still can't afford to not buy units in the early/mid game. It could save 10 or more turns in the very late game. In Crusader States with Cilicia, it helped me to keep Byzantine Empire neutral but they didn't make any enemies on their and just stayed in their territory. Later I could instantly ally the Teutonic+French Crusaders. But the same could be accomplished by paying tribute. And since this is based on our income (full income of current turn for +30 diplomacy) and not the ally's, it's actually cheaper early on. The rest I haven't tried. Best consul skills are Strategist, Logistics, 150 admin points. Goodwill Ambassador and Negotiation Expert could come from another consul who is swapped in later and also has Strategist and Logistics but not necessarily Lobbyist and 150 admin.
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Post by lafluth on Feb 10, 2023 7:39:18 GMT
nikomachos , jonblend , interesting thoughts on challenges selection and consul skills. My views on some of these: 1. 75/76 challenge selection
- My main issue at the moment is that my best gens have merc units up to lvl 14 max. So this is where I need to focus to be competitive vs AI, in order for my gens with their merc units to be able to kill enemy units in one go but also survive. Therefore despite other choices being tempting I still think lowering max level of enemy troops is my best bet.
- Making surrender possible is interesting but as jonblend mentioned it changes little at the end of the day, more of a nice to have.
- Lower castle recruitment cost is also tempting BUT in order for this to be compelling the recruited units need to be worth it, which is not my case (see above). This will certainly be the case once my merc units reach lvl 18+, or even 16.
- Higher initial diplomacy would indeed provide a bit more breathing room for a turn or two but the diplomacy decay is so pronounced (even with lobbyist consul) that it might just postpone the inevitable for a few turns. Resources need to be spent to upgrade cities, replenish units constantly to defend cities, and develop policies, leaving nothing for diplomacy during the early game. So I take diplomacy in early game almost as a lost cause.
- Same for improved gifting, I believe this is more useful mid to late game, by which point the situation has stabilised. The real hurdle is making it through the intense early game phase, where diplomacy cannot really help in a meaningful way. This might be different for a few factions where it might be required to keep a large nation neutral but I have not encountered this scenario yet.
2. Consul skills
- Despite my comments above on diplomacy, lobbyist is probably very useful to make sure the few neutral countries around do not go to war straight away, providing a few extra turns to establish defenses. Also useful late game, as some friendly countries might change attitude as you get closer to them. This was the case with the Gaels. They were gaining diplomacy on their own until a point where no matter what they would switch to negative diplomacy. Meaning I had to feed them gifts every few turns. If I had not had lobbyist I would have needed to spend way more to keep them on my good side.
- Logistics is key to maximise income, especially as many cities are low health due to constant attacks.
- Strategist: yes it would be amazing but which gen has it? If achieved through gems, in my case it would mean swapping admin gems on justinian for other gems, which would just lower his admin way too much, making policies quite a bit more costly. So not sure how to activate this. Would need to put gem-bearing equipment on justinian and as f2p am not sure I have anything I can give him without penalising my good gens.
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Post by jonblend on Feb 10, 2023 14:01:48 GMT
Some random additions to 1. Most of my quality mercs are lv14-15, higher levels yield relatively low status increments compared to the amount of fragments required. Only exception is Varangians which are available on a daily basis and woad/legion/scott. But I haven't tried yet against lower enemies. Generals that I usually buy from tavern: cheap: Narses, Martel, Lancelot, MatildaB with single hospitalier, plus the occasional supporter on single legion brigade when I need their skill immediately quality: Bruce, Cid, Subutai, Cnut+Harry if navy is needed, (Nevsky or Li Jing very late) Having seen Giovanni in your screenshots I will likely promote him from naval support to full archer. And how do you use Fred? 2. This is what I came up with:
MatildaB has Logistics+Negotiation Expert, making her good for allying nations in late game. I'd swap her in after all necessary research has been done to ally 1-2 countries and then back to Justinian until enough resources are gathered for the next round of diplomacy.
option 1: cost effective option 2: calmness+1 on matildaB Since I don't make much use of Outburst/Helmet of the North and costly cavalry mercenaries in conquest, I can spare these two golden items. Greek fire and book of calmness/+25 admin are the mvps in this setting.
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Post by nikomachos on Feb 10, 2023 14:04:51 GMT
to 1
yes i do have lvl 17 varangian and max mamluk and woad so i feel your pain with too high lvl enemies and your decision makes sense.
but though i have those units as you pointed out we need coin to deploy them and i use money mostly for deplomacy in the first 5 turns and have no problem with that. investing heavily into the feature makes my reduced penalty worthwhile in the first place.
it sure does depend on the nation and my neighbours but i do well with spending my money there early game instead of in much needed upgrades and deployment. i always carefully evaluate who to decline blackmail from and who to accept bc i know the nations ai trends quite well and evalute the danger of them coming for me or not beeing able to anyway bc of their own wars.
also upgrading in challenge is only for workshops never cities until later. your enemies upgrade all the cities for you you just have to take them xD time for the rest later. unless there is an upgrade reward of course.
to 2
yes startegist imo is absolutely necessary and i neither reach 150 admin anymore. plus which general to equip with matildas book: justinian or matilda for reduced calmness is always a decision....
actually lol can i switch them around during game? (i think so, part of the problem kinda solved.)
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Post by lafluth on Feb 10, 2023 17:22:52 GMT
Makes sense, interesting. That’s what I thought for the consuls, I need lvl 10 weapon and give them gold equipment. But I just cannot be bothered to swap them around everytime I do a conquest, and I really like them on my other gens so will not move them permanently either. Oh well, no strategist for me Perhaps if I ever do another crazy grind run I might do it… Giovanni is kind of a beast on a good boat. Similar to cnut, just a tiny bit less tanky. Lvl 12 ibc + lvl 6 genovese cb + lvl 20 elite archer worked nicely. He was the spearhead of my navy with cid as side kick and roland with hospitaller as support. Also halfgard and ivar with the bond hit pretty hard on boats As for fred, he is one of my support gens. Bag + hospitaller + teuton, I adjoin him to timur since he also provides +3 morale from his leadership, not amazing but works ok. Who do you send to take cities? Aside from timur that can do it on his own, I found my other strong gens like cnut or bruce were struggling and needed to be in a team of 4 to allow for rotation and rest periods. Perhaps it’s because my varangians and lombard halberds are still lvl 10-11. What I would really like is the ability to have 2 or 3 builds per gen so you could toggle depending on the case. Needs for campaign vs conquest vs territory are quite different. For instance it would be great if I could have a conquest build for alfred where he would have hospitallers. |
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Post by Dannes on Feb 10, 2023 18:20:59 GMT
Oh my god my eyes
Ahhhh
But it's so glorious
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Post by nexttimebro on Feb 10, 2023 23:10:22 GMT
Just wanted to highlight that Robert de Bruce + MatildaB is probably the best combination for challenge conquest. His active skill allows him attack 5-6 times (generally eliminate all enemies around him) and calmness makes this skill active all time.
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Post by nikomachos on Feb 11, 2023 0:26:06 GMT
trimed Who do you send to take cities? Aside from timur that can do it on his own, I found my other strong gens like cnut or bruce were struggling and needed to be in a team of 4 to allow for rotation and rest periods. Perhaps it’s because my varangians and lombard halberds are still lvl 10-11. What I would really like is the ability to have 2 or 3 builds per gen so you could toggle depending on the case. Needs for campaign vs conquest vs territory are quite different. For instance it would be great if I could have a conquest build for alfred where he would have hospitallers. 1. actually exactly those gens you mentioned. mostly in this order, sometimes different depending on reduced cost policy but usually like this. timur free. robert. cnut. dmg ranged gen (el cid or sb like narses with mountain climb depending on situation), aetius just for speed. sometime later basil and everybody else. literally dont deploy cav gens until the last rounds lol. jonblend is correct i should readjust equipment bc all the high levl stuff is wasted on unused cav but i just never cared enough. but for my style far more important than robert as 2nd is who to deploy turn one on regular units: bc since i spend coin elsewhere i cant recruit for some time anyway. deployed first round along with timur: justinian theodora subutai (active skill compensating my lack of robert for now) matilda b who follows subutai around if still units available: a bronze healer a bronze master arsonist a pathfinder often needed to take a key city john armenian as city holder (morale +reduced recruitment) alexios, same as john leo for engineering like justinian city holder on one front while i focus on the other. i love that challenge conquest made many low tier gens important again. at least for me. 2. wow would be awesome! |
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Although I did loose a few units (eg lombard on bob the bruce, hospitallers on some of the support gens, and almost vikings on cnut but managed to save that!)
