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Post by Nobunaga Oda on Jan 2, 2024 16:53:36 GMT
Feel free to discuss. I finished my first Challenge run as the Nagao clan. I avoided the worst options for diplomacy erosion and enemy dmg advantage to player troops, IIRC. However, I have a feeling, inspired by stoic's diplomacy-oriented strategy, that perhaps it's possible to take a risk and complete the game as per usual. Maximising enemy dmg advantage while reducing initial diplomatic status reduction and diplomatic erosion. If we have better initial relations and smaller erosion, we can stall some states even longer, avoid getting blackmailed from -40 to a state of war. Existing agreements may be kept, perhaps stalling friendly states from becoming neutrals / hostiles even longer. However, this means that one must be good at stalling enemy troops at the fore and belligerent from ganging up on us (as they did along the starting Nagao-Anegakoji-Jinbou border cities in Challenge or Hojo in a normal run). Any thoughts? |
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Post by stoic on Jan 2, 2024 17:11:10 GMT
I always choose diplomacy - 40 and diplomatic slider to -5 per turn. I simply don't see any better options there. I don't believe that a difficulty of battles has any impact on the outcome in first two conquests. Probably, just probably, it could make sense to play with prestige/income sliders. But I am not ready to test it personally. If it ain't broke - don't fix it, they say. And mitigating negative consequences in diplomacy is the safest option I have found so far.
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Post by mcdoz18 on Jan 2, 2024 22:55:11 GMT
I also just finished my first challenge run in the battles for owari conquest as the Nagoa. I opted for not touching the price of the tavern recruitment and only increasing the damage of the Ai soldiers by 20%, found this reasonably manageable with a 3 star country as the Ai wouldn't completely nuke my troops and it was a total war campaign basically. not sure if it would work for smaller clans though
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EMut68
First Lieutenant
C nut
Posts: 29
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Post by EMut68 on Jan 3, 2024 3:02:08 GMT
Diplomacy erosion at every turn is an annoying problem, the longer it takes, the more harm it gets
You don't want to see your land ganging up on all side
Past feud, territory bordering, feisty, expansion keener, and diplomacy erosion, overall it would take -10 to -25 on every turn
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Post by truhses on Jan 3, 2024 4:55:01 GMT
-5 in diplomacy and -20% in the tavern.
-20% in the tavern allows you to deploy the first generals as quickly as possible, although later this bonus becomes less important.
How do you place generals without reducing the cost in the tavern: on regular units, creating special units through kami research or captured improved barracks or other options?
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Post by Nobunaga Oda on Jan 3, 2024 5:21:57 GMT
-5 in diplomacy and -20% in the tavern. -20% in the tavern allows you to deploy the first generals as quickly as possible, although later this bonus becomes less important. How do you place generals without reducing the cost in the tavern: on regular units, creating special units through kami research or captured improved barracks or other options? As others said in the first conquest thread, you can use special units that you unlocked within the run. Since Challenge uses your existing troop levels and adds on levels, it becomes more profitable to use in-game troops later on if they exist, or pick a substitute. For my musketeers, since I was unable to deploy them on a special unit, I just spammed them on three stacks of the first musketeer unit because it has the highest movement. For inf, by the time Kaga province (Hongan-ji lands to the top of the map) is taken, I got the clan bonus and province guardian title. On top of existing upgrades to inf, this meant the warrior monks are better than what I have in my actual lineup. I used them.
I don't spam tavern troops anyways so I'll leave it at maximum penalty. Besides, like others said, in-game troops become better in terms of levels that one's existing array, so avoiding Tavern makes even more sense. Lastly, all the deployment discounts don't affect gens spawned from Taverns, right? We can get better discounts in-game. |
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Post by truhses on Jan 3, 2024 9:24:17 GMT
The problem is in the first 5 generals, who largely decide the fate of your clan. Having one infantry barracks built according to instructions, I will not be able to call Maeda with cavalry on turn 2, and Mori or Tokugawa archers on turn 3-4. Even if you build a stable and a shooting range, ordinary units cost not knowledge, but gold, which is in short supply at the beginning.
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Post by balthazar on Jan 3, 2024 9:30:38 GMT
I leave enemy unit lvl and tavern cost at minimum. I cant find way of diplomacy feasible so its all in for me. With tavern thats early game for me and with lower enemy units I get to kill easily after a few prestige and petition buffs. Dont know the Best way though, we should discuss total turn count and AutoBattle possibilities with each strategy. With above strategy I leave it to AI after around turn 50 when near half of the map is conquered.
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Post by Nobunaga Oda on Jan 3, 2024 13:25:31 GMT
At the same time, we are also short on Knowledge, which is needed for upgrades as well.
I'd rather have Mitsuhide summoned on the tier 1 musketeer than wait until I unlock Rain-covered Teppo or Keiji on heavy cav than Tavern Horoshu.
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Post by run4glory on Jan 3, 2024 15:44:35 GMT
Well, the choices are determined by your overall plan. For me, the only plan I could make work so far is the total war plan, with possibly one or two alliances or subjugations at the very end (at Formidable/Overlord reputation). I tried shortly the diplomatic way, but it seemed so hopeless to me. Without gifts but with all other efforts all I get would be diplomatic stability at like -30.
Why would I want that? Without high prestige they dont value my gifts, and in order to get there, I need to conquer land, much land. And now the neighbor I've tried to pacify is a huge block in my way to the other nations since I have no passage. So just declare war already.
I would describe my way as start with tavern generals to form a blitzkrieg team, blitzkrieg the immediate threats and quickly conquer 2-3 nations, all while building colleges. The point where I can comfortably afford the -20% food -10% training reduction vassal usually marks the threshold for "decent economic strength". I usually then am able to spam either 1 stack Sword Master/Akazonae/Horoshu/Hatamoto and start in all directions, and the conquest is essentially decided and only a matter of time.
For this plan, its logical to me not to max tavern and dmg increase towards own troops. That being said, so far I have only done 3-star nations or weaker nations but starting on the edge of the map, I have not done it with a small nation right at the center of action.
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Post by SolidLight on Jan 3, 2024 15:55:13 GMT
I’m doing a run as Jinbou where I chose to avoid the +300% resource bonus that the AI gets. Everyone declares war on me almost immediately, but their attack is nowhere near as serious. Maybe this isn’t a good approach but I’ll win no problem.
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Post by balthazar on Jan 4, 2024 20:17:50 GMT
Well, the choices are determined by your overall plan. For me, the only plan I could make work so far is the total war plan, with possibly one or two alliances or subjugations at the very end (at Formidable/Overlord reputation). I tried shortly the diplomatic way, but it seemed so hopeless to me. Without gifts but with all other efforts all I get would be diplomatic stability at like -30. Why would I want that? Without high prestige they dont value my gifts, and in order to get there, I need to conquer land, much land. And now the neighbor I've tried to pacify is a huge block in my way to the other nations since I have no passage. So just declare war already. I would describe my way as start with tavern generals to form a blitzkrieg team, blitzkrieg the immediate threats and quickly conquer 2-3 nations, all while building colleges. The point where I can comfortably afford the -20% food -10% training reduction vassal usually marks the threshold for "decent economic strength". I usually then am able to spam either 1 stack Sword Master/Akazonae/Horoshu/Hatamoto and start in all directions, and the conquest is essentially decided and only a matter of time. For this plan, its logical to me not to max tavern and dmg increase towards own troops. That being said, so far I have only done 3-star nations or weaker nations but starting on the edge of the map, I have not done it with a small nation right at the center of action. Thats precisely my experience, only I leave enemy unit difference rather than damage bonus. Maybe your choice is better idk if 10% dmg or 2lvl difference is bigger. I have completed Miyoshi in 74 turns. Now I have tried the suggested diplomacy way for Oda but that only gave me some relief but by turn 15 everyone became hostile and I quit. Now instead of paying for blackmails I will go crazy. I think only drawback of this strategy is you have to have special units and I dont have Rain covering Teppo. I will share the outcome later on. |
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Post by SolidLight on Jan 4, 2024 21:31:02 GMT
One thing that makes challenge conquests a whooole lot easier than they were in EW7 is that the AI doesn’t get an income bonus. And your actual unit levels are used in the challenge conquest. So it’s not that different from a normal conquest where you fight everyone in all directions, which is how I played it. That +300% resource boost makes the earlygame way more dire if everyone declares on me, so that’s the one I’m gonna be dropping.
The only edge that the AI has that really forces me on the backfoot is the +20% damage boost their units have with my strat. Which still makes them stronger than mine even if my units are higher level. But it’s easily overcome by my generals being way stronger than theirs. And eventually I’ll boost my units to an higher level from prestige and I’ll get my own +20% damage boost which makes mine beat theirs. So I just have to push a small advantage in order to eventually steamroll the map.
I really haven’t been able to make the diplo play work personally because everyone blackmails me anyway. I’ve won as Takeda in 46 turns with that strat, but I eventually fought everyone anyway and only managed to delay my enemies from declaring war on me for a couple turns. And Karo cost way too much knowledge to keep running at that point.
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Post by balthazar on Jan 5, 2024 16:00:44 GMT
One thing I realized that matters a lot is the unit levels we have. Due to Tenkabito needs I only focused the best units. These are elite samurai, hatamoto, mounted archer and shield teppo for me. Beside them rest is low on levels and I struggle if the clan doesnt have hatamoto and mounted archer at ready. This is why Ashigaka was way easier for me compare to Oda. Once we have high levels on all troops this will be a lot easier.
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Post by balthazar on Jan 5, 2024 17:04:21 GMT
And Idk if anyone has calculated the math but I suspect that 8 lvl difference is stronger than 30% dmg increase. Yes maybe damage does not increase that much but overall, (number of units, defence and abilities) higher lvl units are much harder to kill. Since I play around teppo/range generals I can say that their resistance is noticeable. I was able to kill non special units on sight but with them having +8 lvls (+4 in actual fight for me) thats impossible and enemy swarms. I will definetely bite the bullet and take the 30% instead.
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