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Post by stoic on Mar 2, 2024 17:49:04 GMT
With the new update granting Manstein his biography with +18 attack and +35% critical damage he far exceeds Wittman’s power. Provided we’ll eventually have 1980 challenge conquests with OP-def enemy units Wittman’s ignore defence skill will outclass any other tank gen in the game . And even now Wittman is not far from Manstein performance. Good old times when there were only 3 IAP generals  Nowadays it is difficult even to tell precisely how many are there in WC4 in total  |
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Post by Heinz Guderian on Oct 8, 2024 6:11:04 GMT
Wittmann has been regarded as being inferior to Manstein and Guderian by a lot of people due to a number of reasons, but I disagree. In my opinion, they are pretty much on the same page, with pros and cons for each one of them. In this thread, I will try to support my viewpoint by addressing some of the main concerns people have about Wittmann. In general, the people find Wittmann having 3 key problems. I will respond them one by one. 1. Lack of speed?
Wittmann starts off with 3 movement and ends up with 4. 1 star lower than Guderian and 2 lower than Manstein. I won't argue in Manstein's case because he's faster than everyone. However, this claim isn't that strong in Guderian's case. Right now we have 4 main types of tank units: heavy tank, super tank, King Tiger, and M26. Heavies and Supers both have 12 movement and KT has 11/12. Both Wittmann and Guderian will move 5 grids on plain on all these units. The only exception is M26, which Guderian will move 1 grid faster when you have high level M26. Therefore, although Wittmann's disadvantage exists, I don't think it's THAT decisive. 2. Overhyped skillset?
Wittmann's has Ace Armor as his unique skill, paired with Tide of Iron, which is generally considered as a mediocre skill. As for Ace Armor, you don't need to be a WC4 expert to understand how good this skill is. That being said, people do believe Manstein and Guderian's PF + Inspiration combo is enough to catch up with that. But is it? To verify this claim, I made this spreadsheet, with 3 comparisons made between KT Manstein, M26 Guderian, and Heavy Tank Manstein. All comparisons assume AA and PL medals, high morale, max tank tech, lvl 5 red ribbon, and PF + Inspiration. Summary from the spreadsheet: Wittmann matches approximately 100% damage of KT Manstein at 31 defense, M26 Guderian at 22, heavy tank at 16. Each change in unit of defense will change this ratio by slightly more than 1% in the same direction (Wittmann beats KT Manstein by around 10% for 40 defense, etc.). That explains very clearly of Wittmann's expertise. He is born to crack the tough nuts. Using MW9 Osborn as an example, Wittmann can deal more than 130% of Manstein and Guderian's damage. All elite force tanks have defense much higher than 22. Tide of Iron is weak indeed, but Ace Armor alone is enough to make Wittmann competitive. 3. Lack of versatility?
Besides damage against normal units, people sometimes would also like to add Explosives and/or Rumor onto Manstein and Guderian, but Wittmann doesn't allow that. For Explosives, Wittmann cannot catch up in case of cities. However, if it's against forts, Ace Armor is equivalent to Explosives at 25 defense. For Rumor, there's no way Wittmann can make that up, but surely he can take the place of a tank general that cannot have Rumor, which is almost everyone except Manstein and Guderian. And don't forget, having either skill on them means sacrificing PF, which will reduce the matching threshold of defense by 4-5. Conclusion:No doubt Wittmann has a few shortcomings, but is still a top level tank general. While not as effective in bullying fragile units, Wittmann's damage is at least on par with and sometimes slightly better than Manstein with biography, let alone Guderian. He deserves a high rank in IAP priority. How does Wittman compare to Manstein and Guderian after inferior victory had been introduced? Since now we can put on Inspiration and Inferior Victory on both of them, additionally they both have bio’s. I feel like they might pull ahead of Wittman. |
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Post by Boss Tweed on Oct 8, 2024 14:41:29 GMT
Wittmann has been regarded as being inferior to Manstein and Guderian by a lot of people due to a number of reasons, but I disagree. In my opinion, they are pretty much on the same page, with pros and cons for each one of them. In this thread, I will try to support my viewpoint by addressing some of the main concerns people have about Wittmann. In general, the people find Wittmann having 3 key problems. I will respond them one by one. 1. Lack of speed?
Wittmann starts off with 3 movement and ends up with 4. 1 star lower than Guderian and 2 lower than Manstein. I won't argue in Manstein's case because he's faster than everyone. However, this claim isn't that strong in Guderian's case. Right now we have 4 main types of tank units: heavy tank, super tank, King Tiger, and M26. Heavies and Supers both have 12 movement and KT has 11/12. Both Wittmann and Guderian will move 5 grids on plain on all these units. The only exception is M26, which Guderian will move 1 grid faster when you have high level M26. Therefore, although Wittmann's disadvantage exists, I don't think it's THAT decisive. 2. Overhyped skillset?
Wittmann's has Ace Armor as his unique skill, paired with Tide of Iron, which is generally considered as a mediocre skill. As for Ace Armor, you don't need to be a WC4 expert to understand how good this skill is. That being said, people do believe Manstein and Guderian's PF + Inspiration combo is enough to catch up with that. But is it? To verify this claim, I made this spreadsheet, with 3 comparisons made between KT Manstein, M26 Guderian, and Heavy Tank Manstein. All comparisons assume AA and PL medals, high morale, max tank tech, lvl 5 red ribbon, and PF + Inspiration. Summary from the spreadsheet: Wittmann matches approximately 100% damage of KT Manstein at 31 defense, M26 Guderian at 22, heavy tank at 16. Each change in unit of defense will change this ratio by slightly more than 1% in the same direction (Wittmann beats KT Manstein by around 10% for 40 defense, etc.). That explains very clearly of Wittmann's expertise. He is born to crack the tough nuts. Using MW9 Osborn as an example, Wittmann can deal more than 130% of Manstein and Guderian's damage. All elite force tanks have defense much higher than 22. Tide of Iron is weak indeed, but Ace Armor alone is enough to make Wittmann competitive. 3. Lack of versatility?
Besides damage against normal units, people sometimes would also like to add Explosives and/or Rumor onto Manstein and Guderian, but Wittmann doesn't allow that. For Explosives, Wittmann cannot catch up in case of cities. However, if it's against forts, Ace Armor is equivalent to Explosives at 25 defense. For Rumor, there's no way Wittmann can make that up, but surely he can take the place of a tank general that cannot have Rumor, which is almost everyone except Manstein and Guderian. And don't forget, having either skill on them means sacrificing PF, which will reduce the matching threshold of defense by 4-5. Conclusion:No doubt Wittmann has a few shortcomings, but is still a top level tank general. While not as effective in bullying fragile units, Wittmann's damage is at least on par with and sometimes slightly better than Manstein with biography, let alone Guderian. He deserves a high rank in IAP priority. How does Wittman compare to Manstein and Guderian after inferior victory had been introduced? Since now we can put on Inspiration and Inferior Victory on both of them, additionally they both have bio’s. I feel like they might pull ahead of Wittman. Defense cap for when Wittmann outdamages either (assuming aforementioned calcs) goes higher. A lot of ef tanks recently have inbuilt ignore defense like Centurion under smoke bomb, so I think that would be the determiner of Wittmann's viability in the end. After all, Guderian and Manstein viability increases for every new overpowered ef tank they add right? |
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Post by andrei on Oct 8, 2024 14:51:56 GMT
How does Wittman compare to Manstein and Guderian after inferior victory had been introduced? Since now we can put on Inspiration and Inferior Victory on both of them, additionally they both have bio’s. I feel like they might pull ahead of Wittman. Defense cap for when Wittmann outdamages either (assuming aforementioned calcs) goes higher. A lot of ef tanks recently have inbuilt ignore defense like Centurion under smoke bomb, so I think that would be the determiner of Wittmann's viability in the end. After all, Guderian and Manstein viability increases for every new overpowered ef tank they add right? By the time You can fully utilise those OP abilities of Abram’s or any other OP elite tank there will be no new content as to upgrade those new tanks You need a lot of fragments 😁 IS3 and KT are probably best buddies for most of the players. |
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Post by Erich von Manstein on Oct 10, 2024 1:17:57 GMT
Wittmann has been regarded as being inferior to Manstein and Guderian by a lot of people due to a number of reasons, but I disagree. In my opinion, they are pretty much on the same page, with pros and cons for each one of them. In this thread, I will try to support my viewpoint by addressing some of the main concerns people have about Wittmann. In general, the people find Wittmann having 3 key problems. I will respond them one by one. 1. Lack of speed?
Wittmann starts off with 3 movement and ends up with 4. 1 star lower than Guderian and 2 lower than Manstein. I won't argue in Manstein's case because he's faster than everyone. However, this claim isn't that strong in Guderian's case. Right now we have 4 main types of tank units: heavy tank, super tank, King Tiger, and M26. Heavies and Supers both have 12 movement and KT has 11/12. Both Wittmann and Guderian will move 5 grids on plain on all these units. The only exception is M26, which Guderian will move 1 grid faster when you have high level M26. Therefore, although Wittmann's disadvantage exists, I don't think it's THAT decisive. 2. Overhyped skillset?
Wittmann's has Ace Armor as his unique skill, paired with Tide of Iron, which is generally considered as a mediocre skill. As for Ace Armor, you don't need to be a WC4 expert to understand how good this skill is. That being said, people do believe Manstein and Guderian's PF + Inspiration combo is enough to catch up with that. But is it? To verify this claim, I made this spreadsheet, with 3 comparisons made between KT Manstein, M26 Guderian, and Heavy Tank Manstein. All comparisons assume AA and PL medals, high morale, max tank tech, lvl 5 red ribbon, and PF + Inspiration. Summary from the spreadsheet: Wittmann matches approximately 100% damage of KT Manstein at 31 defense, M26 Guderian at 22, heavy tank at 16. Each change in unit of defense will change this ratio by slightly more than 1% in the same direction (Wittmann beats KT Manstein by around 10% for 40 defense, etc.). That explains very clearly of Wittmann's expertise. He is born to crack the tough nuts. Using MW9 Osborn as an example, Wittmann can deal more than 130% of Manstein and Guderian's damage. All elite force tanks have defense much higher than 22. Tide of Iron is weak indeed, but Ace Armor alone is enough to make Wittmann competitive. 3. Lack of versatility?
Besides damage against normal units, people sometimes would also like to add Explosives and/or Rumor onto Manstein and Guderian, but Wittmann doesn't allow that. For Explosives, Wittmann cannot catch up in case of cities. However, if it's against forts, Ace Armor is equivalent to Explosives at 25 defense. For Rumor, there's no way Wittmann can make that up, but surely he can take the place of a tank general that cannot have Rumor, which is almost everyone except Manstein and Guderian. And don't forget, having either skill on them means sacrificing PF, which will reduce the matching threshold of defense by 4-5. Conclusion:No doubt Wittmann has a few shortcomings, but is still a top level tank general. While not as effective in bullying fragile units, Wittmann's damage is at least on par with and sometimes slightly better than Manstein with biography, let alone Guderian. He deserves a high rank in IAP priority. How does Wittman compare to Manstein and Guderian after inferior victory had been introduced? Since now we can put on Inspiration and Inferior Victory on both of them, additionally they both have bio’s. I feel like they might pull ahead of Wittman. Manstein is on his own level now, followed by Guderian, Wittmann, and Abrams. The 3 of them are basically on the same level with different focuses. |
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Post by journeykeen on Oct 10, 2024 12:09:37 GMT
I agree with Wittman and Guderian, but I have always seen Abrams as lacking.
Anyway, I recommend everyone buy *at most* one IAP general. The game is more fun without them, and everything is still possible f2p.
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Post by Luigi Sansonetti on Oct 15, 2024 12:53:26 GMT
I find Wittmann very lacking and Abrams too inconsistent. The true top-tier IAP tank generals are Manstein, Chernyakhovsky and Tolbukhin.
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Post by andrei on Oct 15, 2024 13:34:57 GMT
Abrams is very useful especially with small countries (hardest challenges). You can disable every single strong enemy gen by killing spam enemy units around. And with his movement damage increase he is overpowered. Just need to know how to use him properly. One of the best gens.
Chernyahovsky’s skill is doubtful in my opinion. I’ld rather directly kill spam units in order to heal my general with green ribbon than kill it with splash. Strange skill.
Tolbukhin is weak. Even Bock is better.
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Post by Luigi Sansonetti on Oct 16, 2024 4:14:37 GMT
Abrams is very useful especially with small countries (hardest challenges). You can disable every single strong enemy gen by killing spam enemy units around. And with his movement damage increase he is overpowered. Just need to know how to use him properly. One of the best gens. Chernyahovsky’s skill is doubtful in my opinion. I’ld rather directly kill spam units in order to heal my general with green ribbon than kill it with splash. Strange skill. Tolbukhin is weak. Even Bock is better. Abrams lack Inspiration which is the key skill for panzer generals, that's why he's weak against spam surrounding him. His job is to be on Challenge Conquests, rushing from continent to continent, but not on events where you can be easily surrounded by spam. Break Through Encirclement is a very mid skill, it's just Rumor with extra steps. For Chernyakhovsky, why not see it as being able to eliminate fragile units around a tanky unit and being able to deal indirect damage to that said unit? For Tolbukhin, never ever underestimate the joint attack skill. Tolbukhin, even on his own is a strong general with Plain Fighting and Inspiration (albeit a fragile one). |
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Post by Boss Tweed on Oct 16, 2024 4:26:44 GMT
Abrams is very useful especially with small countries (hardest challenges). You can disable every single strong enemy gen by killing spam enemy units around. And with his movement damage increase he is overpowered. Just need to know how to use him properly. One of the best gens. Chernyahovsky’s skill is doubtful in my opinion. I’ld rather directly kill spam units in order to heal my general with green ribbon than kill it with splash. Strange skill. Tolbukhin is weak. Even Bock is better. Abrams lack Inspiration which is the key skill for panzer generals, that's why he's weak against spam surrounding him. His job is to be on Challenge Conquests, rushing from continent to continent, but not on events where you can be easily surrounded by spam. Break Through Encirclement is a very mid skill, it's just Rumor with extra steps. For Chernyakhovsky, why not see it as being able to eliminate fragile units around a tanky unit and being able to deal indirect damage to that said unit? For Tolbukhin, never ever underestimate the joint attack skill. Tolbukhin, even on his own is a strong general with Plain Fighting and Inspiration (albeit a fragile one). I ignore Abrams and Tolbukhin and spawn Guderian or Manstein as my first tanker for 1 star nation. These two tank gens always go on my best ef units as they are by far the best spam clearers, being the only guys who can properly one shot things up to triple stack heavy tanks. Abrams I find extremely underwhelming even when his skill is maxed and Chernyakhovsky splash deal too little damage even for my own taste (from the many times I tried in the history event and the Great Patriotic War event). Setting up for both these Blitz purple tankers is a more herculean task than setting up for Tolbukhin, Manstein or Guderian. |
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Post by andrei on Oct 16, 2024 8:42:26 GMT
Abrams is very useful especially with small countries (hardest challenges). You can disable every single strong enemy gen by killing spam enemy units around. And with his movement damage increase he is overpowered. Just need to know how to use him properly. One of the best gens. Chernyahovsky’s skill is doubtful in my opinion. I’ld rather directly kill spam units in order to heal my general with green ribbon than kill it with splash. Strange skill. Tolbukhin is weak. Even Bock is better. Abrams lack Inspiration which is the key skill for panzer generals, that's why he's weak against spam surrounding him. His job is to be on Challenge Conquests, rushing from continent to continent, but not on events where you can be easily surrounded by spam. Break Through Encirclement is a very mid skill, it's just Rumor with extra steps. For Chernyakhovsky, why not see it as being able to eliminate fragile units around a tanky unit and being able to deal indirect damage to that said unit? For Tolbukhin, never ever underestimate the joint attack skill. Tolbukhin, even on his own is a strong general with Plain Fighting and Inspiration (albeit a fragile one). I have no idea why You can’t kill spam with Abrams. Inspiration is of no use to kill spam whatsorever. Why do You need extra damage in case damage without inspiration is enough to kill spam? My guess Your elite tank units are low level. In that case yes early on Chernyachovski’s splash is valid but it is only to the point when You can one shot spam units. After that it is useless. And Abrams’s movement damage buff needs some skills to use properly. Otherwise it is of course underwhelming. Tolbukhin’s special skill is useless. Why do I need to bring more than one heavy tank generals to one front. It will delay my progress. |
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Post by Luigi Sansonetti on Oct 16, 2024 10:50:37 GMT
Abrams lack Inspiration which is the key skill for panzer generals, that's why he's weak against spam surrounding him. His job is to be on Challenge Conquests, rushing from continent to continent, but not on events where you can be easily surrounded by spam. Break Through Encirclement is a very mid skill, it's just Rumor with extra steps. For Chernyakhovsky, why not see it as being able to eliminate fragile units around a tanky unit and being able to deal indirect damage to that said unit? For Tolbukhin, never ever underestimate the joint attack skill. Tolbukhin, even on his own is a strong general with Plain Fighting and Inspiration (albeit a fragile one). I have no idea why You can’t kill spam with Abrams. Inspiration is of no use to kill spam whatsorever. Why do You need extra damage in case damage without inspiration is enough to kill spam? My guess Your elite tank units are low level. In that case yes early on Chernyachovski’s splash is valid but it is only to the point when You can one shot spam units. After that it is useless. And Abrams’s movement damage buff needs some skills to use properly. Otherwise it is of course underwhelming. Tolbukhin’s special skill is useless. Why do I need to bring more than one heavy tank generals to one front. It will delay my progress. I have Lvl 5 KT and IS3. And you are wrong to say that Inspiration is of no use to kill spam. In fact, Inspiration thrives on spam which kills spam. |
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Post by andrei on Oct 16, 2024 10:59:14 GMT
I have no idea why You can’t kill spam with Abrams. Inspiration is of no use to kill spam whatsorever. Why do You need extra damage in case damage without inspiration is enough to kill spam? My guess Your elite tank units are low level. In that case yes early on Chernyachovski’s splash is valid but it is only to the point when You can one shot spam units. After that it is useless. And Abrams’s movement damage buff needs some skills to use properly. Otherwise it is of course underwhelming. Tolbukhin’s special skill is useless. Why do I need to bring more than one heavy tank generals to one front. It will delay my progress. I have Lvl 5 KT and IS3. And you are wrong to say that Inspiration is of no use to kill spam. In fact, Inspiration thrives on spam which kills spam. What do I need Inspiration for in case I can one shot spam units without it? Overkill gives nothing. Inspiration is very good for the gen with Excellence medal Other than that it is just one time additional damage. |
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Post by Luigi Sansonetti on Oct 16, 2024 11:08:42 GMT
I have Lvl 5 KT and IS3. And you are wrong to say that Inspiration is of no use to kill spam. In fact, Inspiration thrives on spam which kills spam. What do I need Inspiration for in case I can one shot spam units without it? Overkill gives nothing. Inspiration is very good for the gen with Excellence medal Other than that it is just one time additional damage. Criticizing Tolbukhin is a light matter, but arguing Inspiration as overkill is where I draw the line. Inspiration + Inferior Victory is the most powerful combo for F2P generals and even for Manstein, and with Guderian they are both an all-rounder, while Abrams is situationally good. Besides, if you don't know, high morale also increases base damage which in turn increases the effect of all other damage multipliers. |
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Post by andrei on Oct 16, 2024 11:11:57 GMT
What do I need Inspiration for in case I can one shot spam units without it? Overkill gives nothing. Inspiration is very good for the gen with Excellence medal Other than that it is just one time additional damage. Criticizing Tolbukhin is a light matter, but arguing Inspiration as overkill is where I draw the line. Inspiration + Inferior Victory is the most powerful combo for F2P generals and even for Manstein, and with Guderian they are both an all-rounder, while Abrams is situationally good. Besides, if you don't know, high morale also increases base damage which in turn increases the effect of all other damage multipliers. Inspiration+IV is a must because of what? Is it just because someone told You that? In case You can utilise Abrams 50% damage increase by using his specific skill what is the difference? Of course if Your play style or skills can’t handle with that, yeah I can understand But I see no difference. His skill is not worse than this combo. Moral increase buff is possible with spam kill as well. It is not something unique, not Inspiration skill monopoly |
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Nowadays it is difficult even to tell precisely how many are there in WC4 in total 
