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Post by Alexyx on Feb 24, 2024 20:10:16 GMT
Hi! As I said I wanted to talk about one aspect of the newer ET games, which I don't really like now that I think about it:
Active Skills:
I was very optimistic when they first came to be, because obviously it was an innovation, but after replaying WC3 and WC4 they feel way too overpowered.
I mean, general units feel like superheroes, they are often very tough to beat without other generals. In earlier games, sure they were jacked up quite good, but they weren't able to attack 5 times, or damage up to 6 units at the same time, or stun enemies... you know what I'm getting at.
Generals without active skills were strong, but plausible. You could attribute the better stats to orginization skills, aiming experience etc.
Now they feel more like fantasy heroes with superpowers. It makes the games more general heavy than it should be imo.
Feel free to write your opinions on it, if you want
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Post by SolidLight on Feb 24, 2024 20:50:29 GMT
I mean Guderian was usually overpowered and that got massively magnified by tanks occasionally having ranged attacks and a 100% chance at attacking again, with no limit. He could attack 5 times, kill up to 6 units in one turn, and stun enemies (rumor), all without an active. I do like that whatever you can do with gens is a bit more complex than "guy just does more damage". So my opinion on actives is positive in general.
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Post by Airi Momoi on Feb 24, 2024 20:54:24 GMT
I think it depends on what feel the time period demands determines whether actives fit in or not.
The main ET games I can think of with active skills are Great Conqueror Shogun, European War 7, and Three Kingdom Conqueror. GCS and Three Kingdoms are very much based on the idea of the fantasy hero, with people like Sanada Yukimura and Lu Bu being larger than life figures who did epic things in battle. It's a little less clear for EW7, but still I think legends like Joan of Arc, King Arthur, and Roland prove enough that medieval Europe had a similar lauding of a general or leader as a superhero.
Now contrast this to the Napoleonic era, WWI, and WWII where the other ET games take place. Here emphasis is less on the leaders and generals and more on their armies and the men who served under them. Thus generals lose their fantastical abilities and become less heroic and more "normal". This is the approach I like about games like EW4 and WC3, generals are killable with normal units, and a problem with WC4's challenge conquest, where the tide of iron consisting of guys like Guderian, Manstein, Leeb, Kluge, etc. seems unstoppable without fighting fire with fire (although maybe I'm just bad, or Germany's steamroll is intentional, which could be the case.)
Essentially, where there's actives, there's a more heroic aspect to those time periods, which is why I like the addition. Besides, it is possible to kill weaker generals in those games, although it's hard to argue that throwing normal units at a fully equipped Yukimura isn't gonna do anything but send good men to their demises.
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Post by SolidLight on Feb 24, 2024 21:18:46 GMT
I think it depends on what feel the time period demands determines whether actives fit in or not. The main ET games I can think of with active skills are Great Conqueror Shogun, European War 7, and Three Kingdom Conqueror. GCS and Three Kingdoms are very much based on the idea of the fantasy hero, with people like Sanada Yukimura and Lu Bu being larger than life figures who did epic things in battle. It's a little less clear for EW7, but still I think legends like Joan of Arc, King Arthur, and Roland prove enough that medieval Europe had a similar lauding of a general or leader as a superhero. Now contrast this to the Napoleonic era, WWI, and WWII where the other ET games take place. Here emphasis is less on the leaders and generals and more on their armies and the men who served under them. Thus generals lose their fantastical abilities and become less heroic and more "normal". This is the approach I like about games like EW4 and WC3, generals are killable with normal units, and a problem with WC4's challenge conquest, where the tide of iron consisting of guys like Guderian, Manstein, Leeb, Kluge, etc. seems unstoppable without fighting fire with fire (although maybe I'm just bad, or Germany's steamroll is intentional, which could be the case.) Essentially, where there's actives, there's a more heroic aspect to those time periods, which is why I like the addition. Besides, it is possible to kill weaker generals in those games, although it's hard to argue that throwing normal units at a fully equipped Yukimura isn't gonna do anything but send good men to their demises. So basically the older and more far removed we are from the realities of the period I guess. Everything in the past gets more romanticized the older it is.
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Post by Airi Momoi on Feb 24, 2024 21:47:22 GMT
So basically the older and more far removed we are from the realities of the period I guess. Everything in the past gets more romanticized the older it is. That's an apt way of putting it, it's easier to lionize things that you aren't living through
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Post by blueberry on Feb 25, 2024 0:50:16 GMT
No, it's just that they need to sell IAPs and so they started giving them OP skills in recent games. But if someone feels like they are too OP (I do), the solution is simple: not buying them...
(I know there are also some f2p gens with good skills, but mainly it's the IAPs)
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Post by stoic on Feb 25, 2024 5:11:28 GMT
In comparison to EW7 I think the active skills are rather modest, including those of IAP I don't know, maybe Takeda Shingen has an OP active skill, but even that is not even close to the active skill Genghis Khan has in EW7, for example. Or Richard.
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Post by Nobunaga Oda on Feb 25, 2024 5:26:10 GMT
In comparison to EW7 I think the active skills are rather modest, including those of IAP I don't know, maybe Takeda Shingen has an OP active skill, but even that is not even close to the active skill Genghis Khan has in EW7, for example. Or Richard. I agree. From removing one legion's natural movement points every three to four turns to once every two turns for that target and two beside it, with a 2-hex range, that's a significant jump. (Lionheart) Genghis's leap is equivalent to Chosokabe Motochika, except that his dmg scale is even higher, he has 2-hex (as opposed to the original 1-hex) range, and can unleash it every turn. I do dislike this element mainly because of PVP combat, but it's less noticeable here also because there is no PVP element.
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Post by Theron of Acragas on Feb 25, 2024 6:04:45 GMT
Besides, it is possible to kill weaker generals in those games, although it's hard to argue that throwing normal units at a fully equipped Yukimura isn't gonna do anything but send good men to their demises. Even stronger generals can be fought reasonably with higher-tier units. Pound with artillery and swarm with sword master - or more reasonably, plant elite samurai to hold the city and just bypass the guy. If you're trying to swarm the guy with ashigaru, I'd argue that Takeda Shingen *should* mow down those peasants. It's worth noting, apart from the fantasy/legendary element, that we're talking about a time when all soldiers are not created equal, to a much greater extent than once armies are lines of men with shooty sticks and armor goes out of style. Apart from a general's own abilities, he probably commands the best trained and best equipped professional soldiers. For that reason alone, it's not unreasonable for Nobunaga and Shigehide to have actives that basically amount to an extra attack every six turns.
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Post by blueberry on Feb 25, 2024 10:48:57 GMT
In comparison to EW7 I think the active skills are rather modest, including those of IAP I don't know, maybe Takeda Shingen has an OP active skill, but even that is not even close to the active skill Genghis Khan has in EW7, for example. Or Richard. Yes, I was mainly thinking of EW7, although Oda's skill is quite powerful, imo. And you never know, they might always add a new skin for Takeda, with the skill "press here to instantly win the battle"...
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Post by jonblend on Feb 25, 2024 14:07:27 GMT
I think that active skills are always problematic in that they allow you to use them all on one turn and one target. In EW5 this was a necessary tactic to overcome powerful bosses and both regular (aura) and IAP generals (strong aoe skills) gave us means to do it. But EW7 has gone more in a direction of spamming lots of enemies. To counter this, mostly IAPs have these exclusive skills to kill, disable or counter hordes, while f2p has to work a lot harder to find winning strategies. In PvP modes (Arena, castle mode and Territory) this becomes overwhelmingly frustrating since daily grinding is supposed to be done quickly and without too much effort.
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Post by truhses on Feb 29, 2024 6:37:23 GMT
I will speak about active skills. In ew7 the maximum cooldown is 5 moves, in gcs it is 7 moves. At general levels 3 and 5, the cooldown is reduced to 5 turns. Why not immediately do a cooldown of 5 moves?! Why two unnecessary levels? Probably to increase the number of fragments needed to fully upgrade a general. 270 extra fragments...
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Post by Theron of Acragas on Feb 29, 2024 8:00:45 GMT
I will speak about active skills. In ew7 the maximum cooldown is 5 moves, in gcs it is 7 moves. At general levels 3 and 5, the cooldown is reduced to 5 turns. Why not immediately do a cooldown of 5 moves?! Why two unnecessary levels? Probably to increase the number of fragments needed to fully upgrade a general. 270 extra fragments... I don't really get this complaint. Generals starting out relatively weak, and upgrading to make them stronger as you progress through the game, is a feature of literally every ET game (and many others), why would GCS be any different?
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