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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2016 0:00:16 GMT
Patton:
Infantry - ***
Tank - *****
Artillery - **
Air - ***
Navy - **
Movement - ***
Skills:
Panzer Leader - 4
Ace Forces - 4
City Skill - 4
Explosives - 3
Blitzkrieg - 3
Rank:
L General or 200 HP
Maximum possible damage:
64 + 28 + 20 + 24 = 136
*Please note that this damage is from a city to a fort unit.
Cost: 3400 medals
Vatutin:
Infantry - *
Tank - *****
Artillery - *
Air -
Navy -
Movement - *
Skills:
Panzer Leader - 2
Tide of Iron - 4
Plain - 2
Supply - 1
Rank:
L Colonel or 120
Maximum Possible Damage:
64 + 28 + 10 + (24, if total is multiplied by 3/4) = 102 (100 with tide)
*Please note that this is on plain.
Cost:
Medals - 1630
Comparison:
Abilities:
Patton > Vatutin
Skill Strength:
Patton > Vatutin
Usefulness of Skills:
Vatutin > Patton
Rank/Survivability:
Patton > Vatutin
Maximum Output:
Patton > Vatutin
Cost:
Vatutin > Patton
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2016 0:06:00 GMT
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Post by Vatutin on Sept 17, 2016 0:12:47 GMT
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Post by deadman on Sept 15, 2017 4:52:58 GMT
Patton
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Post by Max Otto von Stierlitz on Sept 15, 2017 13:56:22 GMT
Patton is better if you lack city cracker. But if you're building perfect lineup, where must be 3 ECs, Guderian and Govorov, than Vatutin as 6th gen is the best choice.
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Post by Leonid Govorov on Sept 17, 2017 2:25:07 GMT
Vatutin is crazy, being soooo cheap. He may lack health but his price more than makes up for it.
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Post by stoic on Sept 18, 2017 7:18:20 GMT
Vatutin is crazy, being soooo cheap. He may lack health but his price more than makes up for it. I used Vatutin in WC3, he was my choice in GoG and GoG Pacific and I definitely will hire him in WC4. Vatutin is like T34 - it is not the best tank in WW2... It is the best tank in terms price/quality! |
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Post by stoic on Sept 18, 2017 7:26:02 GMT
Patton is better if you lack city cracker. But if you're building perfect lineup, where must be 3 ECs, Guderian and Govorov, than Vatutin as 6th gen is the best choice. My team was: 3 ECs, Vatutin, Govorov and... Patton. 1. "Ace forces" lvl 4 means great survivability, especially on short distances, 2. "Explosives" lvl 3 gives 24 add damage to fortress units (always useful), 3. "Street fighting" lvl4 is probably worse than "Plain fighting", but quite good against Alliens (take the city/hold the city) 4. Patton is L General, Guderian is only M General (500 medals difference) 5. Patton has 3 stars Air force ability, Guderian has only 2 6. Patton has 2 stars Navy Ability, Guderian has none 7. With "Ace forces", "Explosives", "Street fighting" and 2 stars Art - Patton can work as artillery/aviation general if necessary 8. "Blitzkrieg" is more or less equal (lvl 3 vrs lvl 4) |
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Post by Max Otto von Stierlitz on Sept 18, 2017 15:46:04 GMT
Patton is better if you lack city cracker. But if you're building perfect lineup, where must be 3 ECs, Guderian and Govorov, than Vatutin as 6th gen is the best choice. My team was: 3 ECs, Vatutin, Govorov and... Patton. 1. "Ace forces" lvl 4 means great survivability, especially on short distances, 2. "Explosives" lvl 3 gives 24 add damage to fortress units (always useful), 3. "Street fighting" lvl4 is probably worse than "Plain fighting", but quite good against Alliens (take the city/hold the city) 4. Patton is L General, Guderian is only M General (500 medals difference) 5. Patton has 3 stars Air force ability, Guderian has only 2 6. Patton has 2 stars Navy Ability, Guderian has none 7. With "Ace forces", "Explosives", "Street fighting" and 2 stars Art - Patton can work as artillery/aviation general if necessary 8. "Blitzkrieg" is more or less equal (lvl 3 vrs lvl 4) 1. Not so great (maximum gain compared to no AF is 90 hp) and only on short distances, on long distances gain of AF is 0 as anyway you reach max level. Also keep in mind that tide of iron makes Guderian no problem to lose those 90 hp temporarily. 2. Explosives ok, they are useful, but ECs with explosives+plain can crack cities much better. 3. To hold the city against aliens it's much better to use art EC on field art with street fighting + plain fighting (they work both in city) and supply. Even not very strong EC with such skills can hold the city very good. 4. Yes, price differs, but in Guderian you can invest those 500 additional medals and make him stronger, in Patton not. 5. Navy is totally unneeded. 6. air sometimes can help, but that's no problem to raise 3-4 stars for ECs, which can do it better. 7. If you have 2 art ECs + Govorov there's no need to use Patton in art. 8. Yes, not significantly. Besides that Guderian has defence and panzer leader, which is crap, but sometimes can be quite useful. My conclusion for Patton: no tide of iron, so with low hp he becomes not so useful, street fighting instead of plain fighting, so he can make notably better damage than Guderian only in aliens campaigns where you can shot tower from nearby city. Everywhere else it is not more than +4 damage to city while Guderian has +20 damage to unit defending city or other units (sure, keeping in mind you will place him on plain). |
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Post by stoic on Sept 19, 2017 6:17:33 GMT
My team was: 3 ECs, Vatutin, Govorov and... Patton. 1. "Ace forces" lvl 4 means great survivability, especially on short distances, 2. "Explosives" lvl 3 gives 24 add damage to fortress units (always useful), 3. "Street fighting" lvl4 is probably worse than "Plain fighting", but quite good against Alliens (take the city/hold the city) 4. Patton is L General, Guderian is only M General (500 medals difference) 5. Patton has 3 stars Air force ability, Guderian has only 2 6. Patton has 2 stars Navy Ability, Guderian has none 7. With "Ace forces", "Explosives", "Street fighting" and 2 stars Art - Patton can work as artillery/aviation general if necessary 8. "Blitzkrieg" is more or less equal (lvl 3 vrs lvl 4) 1. Not so great (maximum gain compared to no AF is 90 hp) and only on short distances, on long distances gain of AF is 0 as anyway you reach max level. Also keep in mind that tide of iron makes Guderian no problem to lose those 90 hp temporarily. 2. Explosives ok, they are useful, but ECs with explosives+plain can crack cities much better. 3. To hold the city against aliens it's much better to use art EC on field art with street fighting + plain fighting (they work both in city) and supply. Even not very strong EC with such skills can hold the city very good. 4. Yes, price differs, but in Guderian you can invest those 500 additional medals and make him stronger, in Patton not. 5. Navy is totally unneeded. 6. air sometimes can help, but that's no problem to raise 3-4 stars for ECs, which can do it better. 7. If you have 2 art ECs + Govorov there's no need to use Patton in art. 8. Yes, not significantly. Besides that Guderian has defence and panzer leader, which is crap, but sometimes can be quite useful. My conclusion for Patton: no tide of iron, so with low hp he becomes not so useful, street fighting instead of plain fighting, so he can make notably better damage than Guderian only in aliens campaigns where you can shot tower from nearby city. Everywhere else it is not more than +4 damage to city while Guderian has +20 damage to unit defending city or other units (sure, keeping in mind you will place him on plain). 1. Short distances bring on a headache in WC3. I hired Patton exactly with those short distances in mind (I completed all 1975 conquests before I could hire him  ). In latter campaigns at the beginning there are always super tanks with little or no experience. It is a perfect vehicle for Patton. Regain of health might be insignificant, but it is there: lvl1 --> lvl2 = 10 lvl2 --> lvl3 = 20 lvl3 --> lvl4 = 30 lvl4 --> lvl5 = 40 lvl5 --> lvl6 = 50 Units on higher level also gets less damage. So it possible to see it as a shield. lvl1 = no reduction lvl2 = 2 lvl3 = 4 lvl4 = 6 lvl5 = 8 lvl6 = 10 Again, maybe insignificant, but something is better than nothing And it is very difficult to gain experience in battles with Alliens without this skill. 2. One more city cracker definitely won't hurt, especially taking into account that cities' defense increases with difficulty level. 3. It is better, but it is not always possible. Patton is quite good holding the city and his street fighting works great with his Ace forces as well. 4. Stronger? His health will be equal to Patton. They both will be Lieutenant generals. Nothing more. The difference between M General and L General is 30 HP and 500 medals . 5. It may be, but it is there in different missions, and the player is forced to use it. For example, in some Break through or wipe out missions there are one tank, one field artillery and... navy. 6. Again we are not in the perfect world and sometimes it is not EC general, who will deliver an air strike. Cities with missiles are rare in campaigns, it is not easy to reach them with artillery (and we both agree, that 2 out of 3 our EC generals are artillerymen). Being used as aviation general is fully compatable with Patton's Streat fighting and Ace forces. His Explosives increases distruction of air strikes significantly. Besides, of course, it is possible to raise even 5 stars in aviation for EC' generals without any doubt, but farming until the very limits is not in everybody's taste  7. That was exactly what I had, and yet there were situations where 3 tanks (for my tank EC general, Vatutin and Patton) were not simpy available. I agree it is not common, but Putton is deffinitely a more versatile general than Guderian. So my conclusion  : Patton has Ace Forces lvl 4 (great in campaigns with 20-25 turns), Explosives (very good against cities espesially with increased difficulty), Street fighting lvl4 (+ 20 dammage in cities), L General status, 3 stars in aviation, 2 stars in artillery and navy versus Guderian's lvl 3 Tide of iron (18 points when health less than 50%), Plain fighting (great skill without doubt) and Defense (probability is low), M general status and only 2 stars in aviation. All in all it is an equal fight in my opinion, Guderian still could be better as a tank general, but Patton's abilities make him good in defense as in offence, he has better survivability, he can be used as aviation general if needed (etc), he is good in campaigns against Alliens for his skills work well together in those circumstances. And Alliens' campaigns is the only thing that could bring trouble to the player . |
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Post by Max Otto von Stierlitz on Sept 19, 2017 10:32:21 GMT
Regarding AF, that's not like you wrote.
It is like this:
Damage Extra HP
<=111 0
112-200 10
200-278 0
278-500 20
500-523 0
523-856 30
856-940 70
940-1300 40
1300-1540 90
1540-2340 50
2340+ 0
So there are only 2 ranges where benefit is quite significant (70 and 90 hp), one of them is 84 hp (in many cases less than one turn), another is 240 hp (some 2-3 turns)
Level benefits are -1 dmg for every level above 1, so that can be not more than 10 extra hp.
Everything else is up to you. The only question, what are your results with such team?
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Post by stoic on Sept 19, 2017 10:39:38 GMT
Regarding AF, that's not like you wrote. It is like this: Damage Extra HP <=111 0 112-200 10 200-278 0 278-500 20 500-523 0 523-856 30 856-940 70 940-1300 40 1300-1540 90 1540-2340 50 2340+ 0 So there are only 2 ranges where benefit is quite significant (70 and 90 hp), one of them is 84 hp (in many cases less than one turn), another is 240 hp (some 2-3 turns) Level benefits are -1 dmg for every level above 1, so that can be not more than 10 extra hp. Everything else is up to you. The only question, what are your results with such team? It is not my data (http://european-war-4.boards.net/thread/3186/ace-forces) I completed the game long ago with 3 golden stars for each single mission |
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Post by Max Otto von Stierlitz on Sept 19, 2017 16:30:13 GMT
It is not my data (http://european-war-4.boards.net/thread/3186/ace-forces) I completed the game long ago with 3 golden stars for each single mission Ah, you wrote just numbers of levelling, I thought you wrote gain from AF compared to no AF. Ok, in this case just everyone entertains himself as he wants, I sometimes prefer quite odd playing too. |
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). In latter campaigns at the beginning there are always super tanks with little or no experience. It is a perfect vehicle for Patton. Regain of health might be insignificant, but it is there: 
:
