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Post by Jean-Luc Picard on Feb 15, 2017 4:41:09 GMT
As we know, the South of the US seceded after the election of Abraham Lincoln in 1860. This started the civil war. What if it had happened otherwise...
Add an event that continues the timeline if you wish.
I'll start.
1860: James Buchanan runs for and is elected to a 2nd term. This deeply frustrates Northern States 1860-early 1861: Massachusetts, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, New Jersey, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, and Oregon secede from the Union
April 1861: California secedes, despite lagging behind the others
August 1861: The Seceding States declare themselves as the legitimate US Government. Northern Senators elect William Seward as President.
October 8, 1861: The Washington territory secedes Dec 7-10, 1861: North and East Pennsylvania secede, join the North as the state of Erie. Strong secessionist movements in the rest of PA do not take such action yet
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Post by Desophaeus on Feb 15, 2017 14:13:31 GMT
It would have been his second term. I checked...
"Buchanan indicated in his 1857 inaugural address that he would not seek a second term; he kept his word, and supported Vice President John C. Breckinridge in 1860." Lincoln won in that election. My add to the RP:
Lagging behind the other seceded states, California ratified their exit from the Union on May 4, 1861.
Within the same month, the governor of Ohio proposed a name for the new grouping as the Free States of America (FSA). A southerner made a cruel mocking comment about it, leading to the phrase "Yankee States of America (YSA)". The congress passes an act in DC banning any other terminology in reference to the Northern states and a strict requirement in demostrasting patriotism by every citizen of the USA.
This bill became a law in the month of August, which happened to be the same month when the Free States of America finally settles on a provisional capital set in New York City for the duration of 1861, possibly deciding on a more permanent capital in the next year.
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Post by Napoleon Bonaparte on Feb 15, 2017 15:05:38 GMT
October 8; Washington and Oregon leave the Union.
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Post by Jean-Luc Picard on Feb 15, 2017 15:28:29 GMT
October 8; Washington and Oregon leave the Union. Oregon already left, but I guess Washington territory can into secession
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Post by Napoleon Bonaparte on Feb 15, 2017 16:06:27 GMT
October 8; Washington and Oregon leave the Union. Oregon already left, but I guess Washington territory can into secession COUGH edit first post COUGH
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Post by Desophaeus on Feb 15, 2017 19:01:23 GMT
Nay on the FSA idea? I was considering what the seceded states would be called. Most likely a little different than the Confederates' CSA.
Also while southern USA keeps Washington DC, it's likely for the northern half to establish a capital in New York City since it was America's original capital (or even maybe Philadelphia, it was the second one).
Still might have been a more centrally located one if people doesn't want a capital in either NYC or Philly, Chicago anyone?
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Post by Jean-Luc Picard on Feb 15, 2017 19:22:59 GMT
Nay on the FSA idea? I was considering what the seceded states would be called. Most likely a little different than the Confederates' CSA. Also while southern USA keeps Washington DC, it's likely for the northern half to establish a capital in New York City since it was America's original capital (or even maybe Philadelphia, it was the second one). Still might have been a more centrally located one if people doesn't want a capital in either NYC or Philly, Chicago anyone? I missed the FSA portion. Added now.
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Post by Jean-Luc Picard on Feb 15, 2017 19:25:31 GMT
Dec 7, 1861: counties of Northern and Eastern Pennsylvania declare themselves as the State of Erie (break off from PA) Dec 8, 1861: The State of Erie secedes Dec 10, 1861: The state of Erie joins tje FSA
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Post by Desophaeus on Feb 15, 2017 19:41:25 GMT
Dec 7, 1861: counties of Northern and Eastern Pennsylvania declare themselves as the State of Erie (break off from PA) Dec 8, 1861: The State of Erie secedes Dec 10, 1861: The state of Erie joins tje FSA Dumb question, why is Pennsylvania still a part of the South? Btw, the state of Erie is certainly a possibility in alternative history but I am pretty sure that the rest of PA would prefer to secede since it already has abolished slavery in all of its counties. Or is that kinda of like having Kentucky and Maryland remaining in the Union despite being slave states? One thing to edit... the Erie area is the NorthWEST portion of PA, not NorthEAST. In fact a city callled Erie, PA is on interstate 90 between Cleveland, OH and Buffalo, NY. Ask Stonewall Jackson and Ivan Kolev if you want to be completely sure. As for myself, I've gone through this city so many times on my way to Rochester, NY.
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Post by Jean-Luc Picard on Feb 15, 2017 19:55:50 GMT
Dec 7, 1861: counties of Northern and Eastern Pennsylvania declare themselves as the State of Erie (break off from PA) Dec 8, 1861: The State of Erie secedes Dec 10, 1861: The state of Erie joins tje FSA Dumb question, why is Pennsylvania still a part of the South? Btw, the state of Erie is certainly a possibility in alternative history but I am pretty sure that the rest of PA would prefer to secede since it already has abolished slavery in all of its counties. Or is that kinda of like having Kentucky and Maryland remaining in the Union despite being slave states? One thing to edit... the Erie area is the NorthWEST portion of PA, not NorthEAST. In fact a city callled Erie, PA is on interstate 90 between Cleveland, OH and Buffalo, NY. Ask Stonewall Jackson and Ivan Kolev if you want to be completely sure. As for myself, I've gone through this city so many times on my way to Rochester, NY. I said North and East, not Northeast. As for PA not seceding fully, that's due to actual politics in the months before Fort Sumter. States like MD, PA, DE, and VA considered forming a 3rd, neutral bloc between the Union and the Confederacy. If USA attacks FSA, PA would for sure secede, but if FSA is the aggressor then that's uncertain
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Post by Desophaeus on Feb 15, 2017 20:04:45 GMT
Ah okay, so to confirm this... Erie, PA would be included in that State of Erie? Kinda weird if it didn't... o.O And what you said about undecided states makes total sense, Jean-Luc Picard.
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Post by Ivan Kolev on Feb 15, 2017 21:23:44 GMT
Jean-Luc Picard , I dont mean to be rude, but James Buchanan didn't get renominated due to the fracturing of the Democratic party between Southern and Northern Democrats, and later pacifists and border staters when John Bell and the Constitutional Union Party comes on the scene. It was split between Stephen Douglass as the Northern Democrat, John Breckinridge as the Southern Democrat, and John Bell as the Constitutional Union nominee. First, we must think of the most plausible way the Democrats could win the 1860 election. First and foremost, the Democratic fracture can't occur, the Southern and Northern wings of the party must remain together for any chance of winning. John Bell may still run, but that is debatable ofc. Next, we have to look at the electoral map: As you can clearly see, the popular vote is just about tied between Democrats and Republicans if the Northern and Southern Wings are united and the Democrats win the majority of the pop. vote if John Bell doesn't run. But the popular vote does not matter when it comes to electing the president, the electoral vote does, and Lincoln was able to take away the Western and Northern states sometimes barely from Stephen Douglass, who despite being in second place for the popular vote, only got 4 electoral votes from the state of Missouri and half of New Jersey due to faithless electors. So given the logistics, it would make sense to have Stephen Douglass run as the Democratic candidate due to electability to Northern voters. Lets say Douglass wins Pennsylvania, Illinois, Oregon, Indiana and maybe Ohio. With these states, Douglass becomes president. Now, while I dont agree the North would really ever secede (Except maybe New England) due to the majority of the population in the North being pro federal, lets say they do secede. My best possible guess for the president of this Free States of America would be William Seward due to his radical republican ideals, but Im not very sure he would have accepted the position or election.
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Post by Desophaeus on Feb 15, 2017 22:50:54 GMT
Agreed that it's relatively unrealistic to expect the pro-federalists to secede their states... Personally... I was thinking of this more of... a collective group of states wishing to create their own federation, preferably clean and pure from the slavery vice.
And if memory serves me right, before the election both parties were severely spilt, Republicans and Democrats into sort of a 4 way race. Of course, Lincoln was lucky to generate sufficient momentum to grab a large chunk of the electorate votes in the last months leading up to the election.
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Post by Ivan Kolev on Feb 16, 2017 0:00:34 GMT
I believe that a far more plausible civil war in this instance would not be a secessionist civil war, but rather a civil war aimed at taking over the government. Important to remember that the Northerners were pro federalist and regionalism did not exactly take root int he North as much as it did in the South. In the South, you had South Carolina trying nullify Federal acts under a States Rights banner and regions such as Texas were not part of the union for that long prior to the civil war.
So here's what Im thinking: The Northern States secede, but do not proclaim a new nation. Instead they claim they are the legitimate government of the United States. Given how this is no longer a war of secession and instead a war of trying to make the government more aligned to their particular interests (South, which is technically the Federal Government, supports slavery, free trade and more states rights, while the North supports abolition, protectionism and more power being given to the federal government). As a result, Republicans such as John C. Fremont, Abraham Lincoln, William Seward, Ulysses. S. Grant, David Farragut (?), and numerous others would join the Northern side of the war.
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Post by Jean-Luc Picard on Feb 16, 2017 0:18:48 GMT
I believe that a far more plausible civil war in this instance would not be a secessionist civil war, but rather a civil war aimed at taking over the government. Important to remember that the Northerners were pro federalist and regionalism did not exactly take root int he North as much as it did in the South. In the South, you had South Carolina trying nullify Federal acts under a States Rights banner and regions such as Texas were not part of the union for that long prior to the civil war. So here's what Im thinking: The Northern States secede, but do not proclaim a new nation. Instead they claim they are the legitimate government of the United States. Given how this is no longer a war of secession and instead a war of trying to make the government more aligned to their particular interests (South, which is technically the Federal Government, supports slavery, free trade and more states rights, while the North supports abolition, protectionism and more power being given to the federal government). As a result, Republicans such as John C. Fremont, Abraham Lincoln, William Seward, Ulysses. S. Grant, David Farragut (?), and numerous others would join the Northern side of the war. I guess we could do that, if Desophaeus is fine with removing the FSA concept
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