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Post by andrei on Mar 28, 2017 13:55:49 GMT
That 1 is the Rumor.  Let's put it this way: I'm, not saying Heihachiro is worth it. Bismarck is way cheaper. BUT: cheaper is not equivalent with better. Let's say, you have unlimited medals. Which one would you choose? From my point of view, clearly not Bismarck, he is never the 3th best artillery general in the game. If we are talking about cost, Bismarck would be even better the Li Shimin, or Napoleon. He is for free, and has 5 stars at stock. PS: 4) I really don't understand that argument. What mathematics are you doing, that 3x50% is worse than 1x80%? If the bonus attack from Artillery Commander isn't that necessary, then the one from Explosive Master isn't either. Again. I am not talking about cheaper right now. But of course it is also important. But he is better because of Rumor. I don't have unlimited medals. But even I have I would choose Bismark, as he has Rumor and Heihachiro has nothing solid - nothing that can help me in the battle. And yes, imo, Bismark is better then Li Shimin. My mathematics is simple. It doesn't matter 2 or 3 when You need 10. Artillery is necessary to destroy walls. And this Heihachiro's marginal advantage is not the point. But most of the mission Artillery attacks enemy units and Bismark's Rumor shines here while Heihachiro is simply a meat-shield. So if we come back to mathematics Rumor's impact is 10 points while a bit higher attack is only 3 points. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2017 16:21:20 GMT
That 1 is the Rumor. Let's put it this way: I'm, not saying Heihachiro is worth it. Bismarck is way cheaper. BUT: cheaper is not equivalent with better. Let's say, you have unlimited medals. Which one would you choose? From my point of view, clearly not Bismarck, he is never the 3th best artillery general in the game. If we are talking about cost, Bismarck would be even better the Li Shimin, or Napoleon. He is for free, and has 5 stars at stock. PS: 4) I really don't understand that argument. What mathematics are you doing, that 3x50% is worse than 1x80%? If the bonus attack from Artillery Commander isn't that necessary, then the one from Explosive Master isn't either. Again. I am not talking about cheaper right now. But of course it is also important. But he is better because of Rumor. I don't have unlimited medals. But even I have I would choose Bismark, as he has Rumor and Heihachiro has nothing solid - nothing that can help me in the battle. And yes, imo, Bismark is better then Li Shimin. My mathematics is simple. It doesn't matter 2 or 3 when You need 10. Artillery is necessary to destroy walls. And this Heihachiro's marginal advantage is not the point. But most of the mission Artillery attacks enemy units and Bismark's Rumor shines here while Heihachiro is simply a meat-shield. So if we come back to mathematics Rumor's impact is 10 points while a bit higher attack is only 3 points. Ok. If, for you Rumor is that good, be it so, I respect that. I think it is great too, but: Heihachiro elite troop -Better attack -Better defense -Cannot be counter-attacked -Navigator skill (only useful if you have luck, -and are at see) -Can support other artillery generals VS. Bismarck elite troop -Better HP -Better basic attack (+50%) against cavalry -Rumor skill (only useful if you have luck, and are at land) PS "So if we come back to mathematics Rumor's impact is 10 points while a bit higher attack is only 3 points." I don't see any mathematics here, just your opinion. Also: From 7 out of 10 shots (70% all the time), Heihachiro is superior against Bismarck, even on land. At see he is obviously superior too. |
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Post by andrei on Mar 28, 2017 16:30:54 GMT
What is You nowadays progress? I mean... is it mid game?
How do you evaluate the effectiveness of the Artillery against enemy generals in comparison to other members of Your team?
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Post by Thrawn on Mar 28, 2017 16:37:00 GMT
Come on guys we all know Khalid is the #1 artillery General(just a joke) I got Khalid, ouch. |
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Post by Imperial RomeBall on Mar 28, 2017 16:39:25 GMT
1) When you leave Bismarck at 5 stars, he is clearly weaker in stats compared to Heihachiro at elite troop. No retaliation is not useless, why would you even leave Bismarck at 5 stars in the first place, when you need this skill? What you are saying isn't logical. Also it is one of the best skills, even with a unit that has a range of 3, since artillery towers are becoming stronger and stronger further in the game, and it is also great against enemy artillery generals. 2) I'm not talking about cost, I'm talking about what is better; and Defense Master is definitely better than "General". 3) I can agree with that. 1 point for Bismarck. 4) To attack +50% for 3 rounds is better, especially against towers, then attack +80% once. For attacking units, Explosive Master is better, yes, but neither Heihachiro or Bismarck are strong attackers, their primal target are walls and towers. So it's 3:1 for Heihachiro. 1) I mean that Your reason "no counter attack" is not applicable as most of the players use him at lv50. So he also has no counter attack. Personally I do not need his "no retaliation" skill as most of the time I do not attack towers. I attack either gates or walls - as those are weaker and it is easier to leave towers either to my first artillery, other team members to attack it close-in fighting or even just leave it behind to advance faster when possible. 2) We should talk not about cheaper-better. We are talking here about usable or not. This skill is not usable. Nobody upgrades this skill as it is unefficient. So why do we compare unusable skills? 4) As You said Heihachiro is not the best attacker so +50% (only when the commander is activated) is not that necessary. Why did You leave Bismark's Rumor behind Your count 3:1 ? Sorry if I'm interrupting but... 1) What do you mean? Level 50 is when he HAS no counter attack. That is the entire reason they leave him at gunpowder. In my experience No retaliation is useful because even though Artillery are only needed for fort crushing, you will often be fighting enemy units, and no retaliation works against Archers (strongest attack?) and the weaker Artillery. 2) not everybody ignores defense/attack master, but you certainly have a point. While I never do it, attack master is better (napoleon's skill) as even though Artillery have low defense, they have very high health. They cannot replace attack with another stat. 4) might as well butt in here too. While Explosive master is probably the best of the triad, I am not convinced it will end up with more damage than even a level 6 Artillery commander, if that is the level it increases length. Note that for every other unit Commander is a way better skill, only Artillery could you argue against it. And more damage (output) is always good. BTW, I agree, Rumor is better than Navigation. Of course, loads of people love Nelson and he has navigation (love him because of longbow but particularly commander too) Anyway, I see you prefer Bismarck over Li Shimin. If you are using the price thing, I can see why. But Bismarck has lower stats, and gets a worse ability at level 6. Even if you think it breaks even, Li Shimin gets a GREAT ability at level 6, plus all the stat boosts. Like constant explosive master. Thus, if you go to level 6, Li Shimin only gets better, while Bismarck is bittersweet. Does not mean Bismarck is a bad artillery, but I think he loses to the Gold General. |
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Post by stoic on Mar 28, 2017 16:45:12 GMT
Come on guys we all know Khalid is the #1 artillery General(just a joke) I got Khalid, ouch. It is not bad:-) 1. There is a difference between get him and use him;-) 2. He is very useful in daily missions. |
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Post by Thrawn on Mar 28, 2017 16:48:50 GMT
It is not bad:-) 1. There is a difference between get him and use him;-) 2. He is very useful in daily missions. My morale has increased! |
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Post by andrei on Mar 28, 2017 16:51:21 GMT
Sorry if I'm interrupting but... 1) What do you mean? Level 50 is when he HAS no counter attack. That is the entire reason they leave him at gunpowder. In my experience No retaliation is useful because even though Artillery are only needed for fort crushing, you will often be fighting enemy units, and no retaliation works against Archers (strongest attack?) and the weaker Artillery. 2) not everybody ignores defense/attack master, but you certainly have a point. While I never do it, attack master is better (napoleon's skill) as even though Artillery have low defense, they have very high health. They cannot replace attack with another stat. 4) might as well butt in here too. While Explosive master is probably the best of the triad, I am not convinced it will end up with more damage than even a level 6 Artillery commander, if that is the level it increases length. Note that for every other unit Commander is a way better skill, only Artillery could you argue against it. And more damage (output) is always good. BTW, I agree, Rumor is better than Navigation. Of course, loads of people love Nelson and he has navigation (love him because of longbow but particularly commander too) Anyway, I see you prefer Bismarck over Li Shimin. If you are using the price thing, I can see why. But Bismarck has lower stats, and gets a worse ability at level 6. Even if you think it breaks even, Li Shimin gets a GREAT ability at level 6, plus all the stat boosts. Like constant explosive master. Thus, if you go to level 6, Li Shimin only gets better, while Bismarck is bittersweet. Does not mean Bismarck is a bad artillery, but I think he loses to the Gold General. 1) No retaliation is applicable only against towers. Archers can easily be attacked from the range 3. I explained why I do not need "no retaliation" for Artillery a bit later in the thread. 2) Well, in case someone is investing a lot of medals into the skill which is among the most expensive... OK. But imo: a) generally, artillery is the last unit to invest in; b) those upgrades provide You with marginal increase for high price every level. Not my choice. 4) Artillery Commander can give You some boost - true. But in the missions where You need 2 artillery - one Heihachiro will not be able to replace both of them. And in case You anyway need 2 artillery... why should You invest into ArtCom? These are my points. Yes, it looks like it is all around price. But it is actually all around time. By the time You are ready to invest into those skills... You don't need it, as You have already completed the game! |
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Post by stoic on Mar 28, 2017 16:57:54 GMT
I think Andrei and Benjago are both right in some way. As a pure art general he is maybe equal to Napoleon: att 437 + 50% + no retaliation - that makes him a real fort cracker. But Andrei said about other side of the coin: in EW5 art general should perform great in his secondary role as a field unit as well. In that case his Commander skill is not that effective, because 650 att against elite enemies is not impressive, and Rumor is much more practical. So I understand discussion. And, though I like his skills, I might admit that team skills are of great importance in the game...
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Post by Imperial RomeBall on Mar 28, 2017 17:09:00 GMT
Sorry if I'm interrupting but... 1) What do you mean? Level 50 is when he HAS no counter attack. That is the entire reason they leave him at gunpowder. In my experience No retaliation is useful because even though Artillery are only needed for fort crushing, you will often be fighting enemy units, and no retaliation works against Archers (strongest attack?) and the weaker Artillery. 2) not everybody ignores defense/attack master, but you certainly have a point. While I never do it, attack master is better (napoleon's skill) as even though Artillery have low defense, they have very high health. They cannot replace attack with another stat. 4) might as well butt in here too. While Explosive master is probably the best of the triad, I am not convinced it will end up with more damage than even a level 6 Artillery commander, if that is the level it increases length. Note that for every other unit Commander is a way better skill, only Artillery could you argue against it. And more damage (output) is always good. BTW, I agree, Rumor is better than Navigation. Of course, loads of people love Nelson and he has navigation (love him because of longbow but particularly commander too) Anyway, I see you prefer Bismarck over Li Shimin. If you are using the price thing, I can see why. But Bismarck has lower stats, and gets a worse ability at level 6. Even if you think it breaks even, Li Shimin gets a GREAT ability at level 6, plus all the stat boosts. Like constant explosive master. Thus, if you go to level 6, Li Shimin only gets better, while Bismarck is bittersweet. Does not mean Bismarck is a bad artillery, but I think he loses to the Gold General. 1) No retaliation is applicable only against towers. Archers can easily be attacked from the range 3. I explained why I do not need "no retaliation" for Artillery a bit later in the thread. 2) Well, in case someone is investing a lot of medals into the skill which is among the most expensive... OK. But imo: a) generally, artillery is the last unit to invest in; b) those upgrades provide You with marginal increase for high price every level. Not my choice. 4) Artillery Commander can give You some boost - true. But in the missions where You need 2 artillery - one Heihachiro will not be able to replace both of them. And in case You anyway need 2 artillery... why should You invest into ArtCom? These are my points. Yes, it looks like it is all around price. But it is actually all around time. By the time You are ready to invest into those skills... You don't need it, as You have already completed the game! 1. And the weak artillery..you are right, Archers can usually be attacked from range 3. But always? Not to mention it might feel more convenient to attack where ever you want. 2. Correct. I agree, defense master is way too expensive, and even worse on an Artillery general. Attack master would be way better in theory, but it costs too much. Would you bother to upgrade General though? If not, then Bismarck gains no points here. Both have useless 3rd skills. 4) Cavalry and Infantry commander boost the General AND the surrounding units, I'm pretty sure its the same for ArtCom. Thus while less powerful you can use it for one artillery only. Perhaps explosive master, despite doing less damage, would be good for AoE damage. But then get Li shimin! (jk) You COULD argue that Explosive master is instantly usable, while Commander needs upgrading. But its not SO much money, not like defense master. In conclusion, I respect your arguments, I agree with several of them. While Commander does not cost so much medals, it DOES cost more than Explosive master. If we WERE going into cost, Bismarck is very cheap. But then again I want the best Artillery that is still attainable. Li Shimin plus Alexander is good enough for me. Partly because I already sunk the medals, partly because he is good. |
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Post by andrei on Mar 28, 2017 17:10:13 GMT
I think Andrei and Benjago are both right in some way. As a pure art general he is maybe equal to Napoleon: att 437 + 50% + no retaliation - that makes him a real fort cracker. But Andrei said about other side of the coin: in EW5 art general should perform great in his secondary role as a field unit as well. In that case his Commander skill is not that effective, because 650 att against elite enemies is not impressive, and Rumor is much more practical. So I understand discussion. And, though I like his skills, I might admit that team skills are of great importance in the game... Exactly. I assume that any Artillery is fine for the fort cracking. Even Alexander is decent for that purpose. That's why the main issue while choose between the Artillery is how good they are as a team players in the field. |
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Post by andrei on Mar 28, 2017 17:16:07 GMT
Imperial RomeBall, Yes, Bismark's General is also useless. Explosive Master is also not the main priority to invest in. So it is all around Rumor which is extremely useful for team play. And for Heihachiro I see no any skill to invest in. ArtCom could be same great as Cav/Inf/ArcCom only in case it will be necessary to use artillery a lot. But it's not.
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Post by Imperial RomeBall on Mar 28, 2017 17:39:48 GMT
Imperial RomeBall , Yes, Bismark's General is also useless. Explosive Master is also not the main priority to invest in. So it is all around Rumor which is extremely useful for team play. And for Heihachiro I see no any skill to invest in. ArtCom could be same great as Cav/Inf/ArcCom only in case it will be necessary to use artillery a lot. But it's not. Yeah, I'd probably pick Bismarck as permanent artillery general, certainly by cost if nothing else. (being free, it ain't fair) While Artillery commander is a very powerful skill, at least with every other unit type, I agree that Rumor is pretty good, despite its 30% limit. I'm pretty sure thats the limit. Since 1st skill is worse for Bismarck, and 3rd skill tied in being equally useless, its really a fight between Rumor and ArtCom/Navigation. Navigation probably does not tip the scales towards Togo, as its even more situational than Rumor. Anyway, we are talking about a Japanese Admiral. The only Asian Admiral we need is Yi-Sun-Shin. Ain't that right, Yi Sun Sin? |
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Post by stoic on Mar 28, 2017 18:07:56 GMT
Out of curiosity I saw last lvl 5 campaign and first two lvl 6 campaigns (to find the number of naval battles).
1. Last campaign lvl 5
1 naval battle + 1 see/land battle out of 5
2. First campaign lvl 6
1 naval battle + 1 see/land battle out of 3
3. Second campaign lvl 6
1 naval battle + 1 see/land battle out of 4
I was really surprised at a frequency... But of course, stats is incomplete...
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Post by Mountbatten on Mar 28, 2017 18:48:02 GMT
Meanwhile, I can't even make it out of Discovery Age. No lvl 6 generals for me.
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