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Post by Tamon Yamaguchi on Mar 2, 2018 7:06:53 GMT
Disclaimer: I'm not supporting Hitler, the Holocaust, National-Socialism, nor the War Crimes done by either sides.
So, WW2 was a disaster for the Germans, but they came close to victory twice, from what I think. First is their victory against the French(After Fall Gelb) and the second is right before Battle of Moscow(After Operation Barbarossa). But then, after the Battle of Moscow, followed by Stalingrad, followed by an ununderstandable declaration of war against the U.S., Hitler fell, and the Allies were victorious.
Therefore, I wanted to ask Y'all a question: If you were in Hitler's position, what could Y'all have done to prevent the downfall? Now, this is a historical debate, so please don't be offended. Thank you!
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Post by Tito on Mar 2, 2018 14:43:01 GMT
My plans would be to have supported the war effort in Africa and to have build up and modernized the navy. Not bomb pearl harbour or anything else to provoke America. Invade the Middle east and avoid civilian bombardment but the bombardment of Airfields, Ports and Naval and Aerial craft during the battle of Britian. Modernizing the navy wouldn't be the best solution as even the Tiger tank was hard to repair because of it's complications but a large Submarine and decently modern navy to sink Britians homefleet and with the destruction of the RAF and Royal Navy the british would have been done for. I wouldn't use my Overseas ships until the Navies of the UK were done for. And I would leave the USSR for last because the largest german issue was oil and Africa and ME are filled with it and other resources. Then I'd just help out Japan in their cause and would have just dominated the Soviets and Americans in Technology after these conflicts were done for
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Post by Nobunaga Oda on Mar 2, 2018 16:16:35 GMT
Finish what Hitler started in 1939, end Britain & fully manifest German destiny I would also do the same as you Tito, strengthen the North African forces, just to end the Allies here, before allying with Egypt (Wiki claims that Egypt contemplated switching sides if the Brits ever lose). At this time, I highly doubt Soviets can sit still if they allow themselves to be surrounded, while Pearl Harbour would've happened some time ago. Dönitz to ONLY hold the Atlantic with subs, Guderian, Manstein & co. to invade USSR, invade Allied territory in the Middle East (if any) & head to the Caucasus. Demand Wilhelm Ritter von Leeb to capture Leningrad, use propaganda to spur anti-USSR rebels to help out & drive towards Moscow instead of Ukraine. Caucasus forces to seize Stalingrad, weaker troops to continue the campaign in Ukraine & the rest to meet up at the Kremlin. Now, I may capitalise on anti-British sentiments in whatever's left of the empire to spur revolutions, thus practically destroying the last elements of Britain. Let's pray that the Red Army has given up after Moscow fell, otherwise hope that the Wehrmacht has fully destroyed the last elements of it. March into China, then prep for an expedition to Canada. 24 hours before launching an amphibious attack, an ultimatum is to be delivered: Seek peace & allow Germany to pass through or be devastated. If no reply is given by the 20th hour, an attack is to be made. By this time, Spain should've been greatly urged, enough to prompt them to declare war. (Maybe all of Iberia can join the Axis if needed). Also, land which the Wehrmacht "liberated" is to hold elections, to decide on their government, but will be like Dominions. Lastly, our other fellow Axis should have sent troops to the Pacific. Repeat the ultimatum & invade Australia the same way or encircle the Allies in the central Pacific. To end it off, demonstrate the power of the Axis & head South to Washington D.C. OR make peace, if the USA wants to. The peace treaty must be nice to both parties, maybe even guarantee German withdrawal from Western nations to reform their respective gov. Also, I will not carry out war crimes & pressure Japan to do the same.
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Post by Tito on Mar 2, 2018 17:12:22 GMT
I would have seized the Caucasus and the city of Stalingrad last on that front.
A Key Factor is taking out the British colony and the mainland.
A Soviet Invasion in my vision would be using quick units as Motorized, Mechanized or Light Tanks and with stronger ones to push next as the Soviets are unorganized. Basically Blitz and surround while Fortresses on Wheels roll main Soviet forces and if the Battle if Britian is done then there would be many aces and great airplanes to be sent east, as only the best planes were sent west in the real timeline.
In Operation Barbarossa I'd seize Natural defenses as Rivers and abuse the Patroitism of the Soviets to just amass Causalities. Leningrad would have fallen with Finnish assaults and German Naval Support and a small german support of men but large supplies.
Pearl harbour doesn't need to happen but I see a large German-Japanese assault on the Pacific American fleet. The Main Japanese navy and with Japanese controled German U-boats or even planes for carriers
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Post by Tito on Mar 2, 2018 17:16:26 GMT
And what I forgot to say waw that Quick Combat would be used as my Doctrine or part of it, conquer quickly and get the enemy into a position of not being able to retaliate or surrender. But this wouldn't work forever so my goal is to take resourcely valuable spots as Middle East and Africa and then switch to different kinds of combat. And I'd like to note that Africa has loads of untapped resources so if put to use Germany itself would be impossible to beat. The Quick combat would be Poland, France, BNLand Scandinavia and through Africa. Later I'll write a more descriptive post.
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Post by Tamon Yamaguchi on Mar 2, 2018 23:50:35 GMT
TBH, I'd probably have secured peace with Britain and France, and just take Poland. (And keep France as a puppet if possible). Attacking USSR was pure stupidness, everybody failed, even the genius Napoleon. Britain also proved impossible to invade, so why bother, and just sign a peace deal, when Third Reich was at its full Glory?
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Post by Tito on Mar 3, 2018 6:31:45 GMT
The British didn't want to sign it but Hitler did want the peace The British would have fell easily if you conquered their African and maybe even Asian assets. Taking London would have the Brits GGed
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Post by Nobunaga Oda on Mar 3, 2018 14:57:47 GMT
The British didn't want to sign it but Hitler did want the peace The British would have fell easily if you conquered their African and maybe even Asian assets. Taking London would have the Brits GGed I think the most important of these are their dominions, specifically the major dominions of British Raj & Egypt. Ironically, these two do have noticeable anti-British sentiments. Plus, those along the new Europe - Asia-Pacific sea trade route.
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Post by Nobunaga Oda on Mar 3, 2018 15:02:21 GMT
Tito's 2nd post. My thoughts were Europe -> Africa -> USSR, Middle East (if ABSOLUTELY necessary) -> China, Canada (if ABSOLUTELY necessary) -> USA (if ABSOLUTELY necessary) Depending on how the Middle East-Caucasus campaign turns out, the Middle East - North African division of the Wehrmacht might either arrive to assist as operations are well under way to invade the USSR or arrive to help clear out the 3rd most important city in the Historically accurate Nazi invasion of the USSR. Nonetheless, your ideas are interesting & worth noting.
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Post by Tito on Mar 4, 2018 12:55:15 GMT
I don't think Stalin would have turned on Germany, I'd do what happened irl and I'd do my job while I'd make Stalin play around (Molotov Ribbentorp pact) My goal is again beat out the westeners by their prized belongings of Colonies. I count on an uprising in india supported by the Axis after the fall of Suez and Gibraltar, lack of supplies will make them rebel probably. The raj would be still an easy picking. As Axis as a whole I'd urge Japan to produce overseas ships or if some British ships were left alive, hand them to Japan, and I'd focus on U-boat warfare for the longterm. So even, EVEN if the people fleed to America (with the fall of the Soviets) to launch an attack, even though it is practically impossible to peform any kind of assault across the atlantic that would be considered a threat, the subs would guard the pacific and atlantic of any ships that aren't Axis and eliminate then, even if they somehow passed that, they wouldn't get far on Land. I'd make long range unmanned units aka missiles to down the americans, set up the launchpads on Tokyo and somwhere close to the Atlantic to reduce American threat, shooting Hawaii and Midway, Ports in the Atlantic or Gulf of Mex and destroy any thing that could be considered a project for WoMDs. The Americans would give in or just be unable to do anything. Same goes for Planes if there were many to be considered a threat These are plans for the Aftermath as the American Front wouldn't be managable. And later on reform the Spanish empire with German Funded expansions in S and Central America. Then literally could pursue an assault on America and Canada w any leftover forces. My last act would be creating many puppet states with total control of germany but for the people to have the sense of "not being occupied"
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Post by Tito on Mar 4, 2018 13:01:34 GMT
So Op. Barbarossa can go to ways First If the Red Army is spread out This will be mostly made of quick ground assaults peformed by the Wermacht surrounding and eliminating Second If the Red Army is centralized Aka the Army is set on a city and it acts defensivly on the point where it is being attacked. Then I'd start with a large assault of planes to destroy their planes first, then production, then units, my ground army wouldn't peform much except marching a bit but not too much until the bombing has basically wiped off the Red Army, Airforce and Production. I'd have Bismarck still in hand and peform a Naval attack on Leningrad with a small push through Kaleria and a lot of support given to Finland to make up an another front on the Soviets, then just roll them
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Post by rjs on Mar 4, 2018 17:21:54 GMT
First of all let start off by saying,Germany had an fool as a leader. Incompetent nimcapoop trench messenger. That said,had Germany kept its pact with USSR and NOT declared war on the USA after PH,it .may have been possible to secure gains, also atrocities should never been, Hitler was insane.
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Post by Washington on Mar 4, 2018 17:42:33 GMT
Destroy forces at Dunkirk Fund a 'stay neutral' campaign in Washington with Lindbergh and Ford as main campaigners Negotiate Japan to launch an assault in Siberia, to prevent the relocation of siberian divisions and to avoid Pearl Harbor Launch Barbarossa at April for good weather conditions Avoid Stalingrad and go full on Caucauses Pressure the Finns to advance in Stalingrad Target Radar stations and other strategic british facilities instead of cities Take Malta and shorten axis supply routes Equip Italians with German weaponry If Japan disagrees- support ROC so an invasion of china is still plausible
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Post by Haelicon on Mar 4, 2018 18:44:56 GMT
Not really a fool. Yes, he is a massive "roadblock" for the Wehrmacht in the later years, but his decisions really helped in the early years.
Significant numbers of officers in OKW supported the idea to attack France in 1942, mainly to recover from the Polish campaign and to reinforce the Wehrmacht more. This plan could throw Germany into another WW1 2.0. Hitler disliked this, and he approved Manstein plan to attack early and fast, striking deep into France. This plan worked, bringing Germany an unexpected easy victory against the French. Not even the OKW, Hitler, anyone, expected this.
Second, we judge Hitler's decision to invade USSR as an incredible mistake and stupidity. This is true, but let's see from Hitler's eyes. Back then, Soviet Union had just executed nearly every brilliant and able officers they have. With nearly no discipline and competency in the Red Army - proven partially true in the Winter War - logistical problems and outdated army, Abwehr's incorrect estimate about the amounts of Soviet Army's divisions and Wehrmacht's myth of being undefeatable and unstoppable in full swing, for Hitler, it really makes sense for Germany to attack Soviet Union at that time.
Third, we judge Germany's declaration of war against the USA as a stupid act (and again, it is), but again we need to see the situation at that time. In 11th December 1941, Germany was at its zenith. Wehrmacht was at the doorstep of Moscow, Russia had just lost vast territories, soldiers, and machineries to the Germans. It seems that a final punch was all what Germany needed to knock Russia out from the war. Also, Germany was in an alliance with the Japanese. They need to "support" Japan by declaring war on the USA. Also, by declaring war on the USA, Germany hoped that Japan will declare war on the Soviet Union too.
Fourth, for "why Hitler didn't support Rommel in North Africa", Germany at that time was in the process of Fall Blau, a massive offensive to the Caucasus. Literally, every men and material was needed in this decisive push on the Soviet Union. The Middle East was Germany's least important theatre of war. All their objective was to actually defend Italian position in Libya, it's Rommel's own decision to attack British positions in Egypt. Even OKW and the Italian Headquarter initially blocked him to do more offensive, as it is not their objective to capture Egypt. Yes, attacking Suez and blocking British convoys and trades there was important, but again, Britain was not Hitler main objective at that time. While capturing British oilfields may relieve Germany's deteriorating oil condition, Middle East's oil potential was not known at that time. The biggest oil reserves known in the region was in Iran, a neutral state. Also, Germany's main objective, Fall Blau, was to capture Soviet's oil refineries in the Caucasus, mainly at Baku. Why attack the Middle East just to capture some oil refineries, if you are in the process of capturing the Soviet's one, and also possibly deny 70% of their own oil supply?
I'm not supporting Hitler in any way, I'm just clarifying some thoughts about Hitler. He is not a massive idiot for the entire duration of the war (He is in 1944-1945 though). BUT I agree with your remarks about his atrocities. He is truly insane for ordering the Holocaust, etc. Again, I am not supporting Hitler for his decision (Holocaust, war, etc etc.). My conclusion is, we need to see the war from BOTH sides, and the situation at that time, to conclude something.
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Post by Nobunaga Oda on Mar 5, 2018 8:49:12 GMT
Destroy forces at Dunkirk Fund a 'stay neutral' campaign in Washington with Lindbergh and Ford as main campaigners Negotiate Japan to launch an assault in Siberia, to prevent the relocation of siberian divisions and to avoid Pearl Harbor Launch Barbarossa at April for good weather conditions Avoid Stalingrad and go full on Caucauses Pressure the Finns to advance in Stalingrad Target Radar stations and other strategic british facilities instead of cities Take Malta and shorten axis supply routes Equip Italians with German weaponry If Japan disagrees- support ROC so an invasion of china is still plausible I highly doubt that the "Stay Neutral" campaign might succeed since 1) The best place to get resources from is Southeast Asia, meaning that conflict with USA is inevitable unless the Japs avoid the Philippines & the USA stays out 2) The Japs were taught a strict lesson about attacking the Soviets in the undeclared Soviet-Jap border war so they'd be more weary of attacking them again 3) The above makes it more likely the Japs will repeat the same mistake again of Pearl Harbour.
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