|
|
Post by stoic on Jul 31, 2019 9:37:18 GMT
It is really easy to verify how many points Inspire can give to a general. But we need a volunteer  Give to your commander 8 archer stars, and compare his stats with and without laurel crown. Better with an elite archer unit, as we try to hire those ones for our generals. |
|
|
|
Post by andrei on Jul 31, 2019 9:45:17 GMT
stoic, I am not talking about items particularly  I am talking about morale maintaining. It is very easy. Or You disagree? Regarding Your words that Drusus already has those 20 points advantage, true. I mentioned that. And than we have more skills with Octavian and no more from Drusus. That what I was talking about. When speaking about Commander skill and its percentage You also don't take into account that we can use Forced March. It means that this skill can give You like many attacks per turn. I personally benefited from it many times this way - once I had 7 attacks per turn. It is not a guarantee, true. But, hey, so many attacks. It is just out of competition. P.S.: Counterattack works not only against archers, but against any enemy what makes this skill very good. While Drusus's Hide is just against Archers, very dubious advantage in my opinion.
|
|
|
|
Post by stoic on Jul 31, 2019 9:57:56 GMT
stoic, I am not talking about items particularly I am talking about morale maintaining. It is very easy. Or You disagree? Regarding Your words that Drusus already has those 20 points advantage, true. I mentioned that. And than we have more skills with Octavian and no more from Drusus. That what I was talking about. When speaking about Commander skill and its percentage You also don't take into account that we can use Forced March. It means that this skill can give You like many attacks per turn. I personally benefited from it many times this way - once I had 7 attacks per turn. It is not a guarantee, true. But, hey, so many attacks. It is just out of competition. P.S.: Counterattack works not only against archers, but against any enemy what makes this skill very good. While Drusus's Hide is just against Archers, very dubious advantage in my opinion. Well, Archer Commander is the only one argument that makes this discussion possible And it is definitely one of the best skills in the game. But 20% of probability is still 20%. But I agree that it is worth trying. Other skills of Octavian don't give any edge to him over Drusus. Yet, thanks to combination talent+skill Drusus has 35-40% of critical rate. And a critical damage is enormous in some circumstances, do you remember Drusus vs. Surena screens - 350-400 damage against a general. That's huge...  |
|
|
|
Post by andrei on Jul 31, 2019 10:05:23 GMT
stoic , I am not talking about items particularly I am talking about morale maintaining. It is very easy. Or You disagree? Regarding Your words that Drusus already has those 20 points advantage, true. I mentioned that. And than we have more skills with Octavian and no more from Drusus. That what I was talking about. When speaking about Commander skill and its percentage You also don't take into account that we can use Forced March. It means that this skill can give You like many attacks per turn. I personally benefited from it many times this way - once I had 7 attacks per turn. It is not a guarantee, true. But, hey, so many attacks. It is just out of competition. P.S.: Counterattack works not only against archers, but against any enemy what makes this skill very good. While Drusus's Hide is just against Archers, very dubious advantage in my opinion. Well, Archer Commander is the only one argument that makes this discussion possible And it is definitely one of the best skills in the game. But 20% of probability is still 20%. But I agree that it is worth trying. Other skills of Octavian don't give any edge to him over Drusus. Yet, thanks to combination talent+skill Drusus has 35-40% of critical rate. And a critical damage is enormous in some circumstances, do you remember Drusus vs. Surena screens - 350-400 damage against a general. That's huge... upload, I agree. Crit damage is great. But it is mainly because of the unit You put Drusus on. The unit, the gear. From Drusus it is only crit rate... The damage - not that much. |
|
|
|
Post by stoic on Jul 31, 2019 10:14:07 GMT
Well, Archer Commander is the only one argument that makes this discussion possible And it is definitely one of the best skills in the game. But 20% of probability is still 20%. But I agree that it is worth trying. Other skills of Octavian don't give any edge to him over Drusus. Yet, thanks to combination talent+skill Drusus has 35-40% of critical rate. And a critical damage is enormous in some circumstances, do you remember Drusus vs. Surena screens - 350-400 damage against a general. That's huge... upload, I agree. Crit damage is great. But it is mainly because of the unit You put Drusus on. The unit, the gear. From Drusus it is only crit rate... The damage - not that much. Yes, I agree, as well But it is up to us to find a suitable unit for our generals. I presume we will have enough javelineers in later campaigns. And high critical rate is a good advantage,I think... |
|
|
|
Post by Lucius Vorenus on Jul 31, 2019 10:24:01 GMT
Lucius VorenusCan you explain (if possible without many phrases) obvious advantages of Octavian over Drusus? Just 1, 2, 3. As you say, even to compare them is laughable, so we can laugh together... All these statements that a great tactician always can keep moral of his units high are a joke, actually. First attack of AI's cavalry or archers and your high moral is fading away. It is as simple as that. Did you personally use rings in real campaigns and conquests? Can you demonstrate how to keep moral high using only a ring in one mission so that we can learn from your skills? I already explained my comparison between the two, simply listing 1,2,3 reasons why is not sufficient, that leaves it open to being countered if you do not provide an explanation. I thought I did this already but I will try to explain better. After comparing talents, commander skill, and advantage skill, drussus only has a 5% damage bonus over Octavian. If you would like to contest this conclusion then please provide the math, perhaps I am wrong. If any of Octavian's 3 other skills activate, he makes up that 5% aside from occurrences of very high damage, specifically 300+ for besiege/accuracy, and 400+ for counterattack. Once again if you don't agree with my math then please state why and provide the proper math. Simply stating Drussus is better at this and this and this without saying why is meaningless. When Octavian is at high morale he is no longer at a 5% disadvantage, he now has an advantage of 15%. If we take items into account, gold ring/crown for Octavian, crossbow for Drussus, then Octavian still has a 7.5% damage advantage when at high morale. At that point he not only has a higher damage bonus than Drussus, but still has his other skills, so yes at this point someone still trying to say Drussus is better is laughable. As for maintaining high morale, you can continue to mock me if you wish, I could care less. There is no reason to have an archer gen get flanked or surrounded. Keep him with other gens, spam a few auxiliary to block enemy movement and take hits, don't rush into fog. If this does not work then I don't know what to tell you. Myself and others seem to have no issue with morale, especially with gold rings. And yes, I have used gold rings, I just started using them recently actually, in expedition and conquest as I already cleared everything in campaign before trying them. They are amazing for keeping morale up in expedition where you don't have access to oration. If you really want to guarantee 100% uptime then just throw laurel crown on. |
|
|
|
Post by stoic on Jul 31, 2019 11:17:18 GMT
Lucius VorenusCan you explain (if possible without many phrases) obvious advantages of Octavian over Drusus? Just 1, 2, 3. As you say, even to compare them is laughable, so we can laugh together... All these statements that a great tactician always can keep moral of his units high are a joke, actually. First attack of AI's cavalry or archers and your high moral is fading away. It is as simple as that. Did you personally use rings in real campaigns and conquests? Can you demonstrate how to keep moral high using only a ring in one mission so that we can learn from your skills? I already explained my comparison between the two, simply listing 1,2,3 reasons why is not sufficient, that leaves it open to being countered if you do not provide an explanation. I thought I did this already but I will try to explain better. After comparing talents, commander skill, and advantage skill, drussus only has a 5% damage bonus over Octavian. If you would like to contest this conclusion then please provide the math, perhaps I am wrong. If any of Octavian's 3 other skills activate, he makes up that 5% aside from occurrences of very high damage, specifically 300+ for besiege/accuracy, and 400+ for counterattack. Once again if you don't agree with my math then please state why and provide the proper math. Simply stating Drussus is better at this and this and this without saying why is meaningless. When Octavian is at high morale he is no longer at a 5% disadvantage, he now has an advantage of 15%. If we take items into account, gold ring/crown for Octavian, crossbow for Drussus, then Octavian still has a 7.5% damage advantage when at high morale. At that point he not only has a higher damage bonus than Drussus, but still has his other skills, so yes at this point someone still trying to say Drussus is better is laughable. As for maintaining high morale, you can continue to mock me if you wish, I could care less. There is no reason to have an archer gen get flanked or surrounded. Keep him with other gens, spam a few auxiliary to block enemy movement and take hits, don't rush into fog. If this does not work then I don't know what to tell you. Myself and others seem to have no issue with morale, especially with gold rings. And yes, I have used gold rings, I just started using them recently actually, in expedition and conquest as I already cleared everything in campaign before trying them. They are amazing for keeping morale up in expedition where you don't have access to oration. If you really want to guarantee 100% uptime then just throw laurel crown on. Math? You take something out of the blue and call it "math". "Vs Octavian, commander skill counters the damage from inspire" Is this an example how they teach you to do math - to take a percentage based skill and to compare it with precision to something completely different? Your whole "theory" is based on the assumption that you can guarantee high moral for Octavian, but it is not verifiable, maybe you can, maybe you can't. You say if we give a crossbow to Drusus and a ring to Octavian then Octavian "has a 7.5% damage advantage", it is a rubbish, not math, because we don't know how often Drusus' attacks will be critical ones and how high will be his damage against different opponents. Your attitude: "I am here, case closed" is the only laughable thing. Trying to express it in "scientific" language does not help. |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 11:35:02 GMT
There are questions in this world that people cannot answer: "Why is there something rather than nothing?" "What is the purpose of existence?" "When will the argument about Drusus end?  " |
|
|
|
Post by Friedrich “Fried Rice” Paulus on Jul 31, 2019 12:14:07 GMT
Well to be fair, I had caesar’s archer commander trigger 3 times in a row a couple of times. Regarding octavian and mih vi, the possibility of keeping them at high morale all the time is not always the case. For example, sometimes there are scripted debuffs in a mission. All that needs to happen is you getting flanked by two units and you are rumored. Getting rumored is really rare, but getting a double morale debuff is not that uncommon for me. Plus most of the time you are at normal morale.
As for the money octavian saves, it really isn’t that much as his most expensive skill: archer commander is only at lvl 2. Thats 10 * 45 = 450 medals you still have to invest in him. For drusus, the only real skill of his that you need to invest into is advantage.
Damage wise, I personally have to say that accuracy and counterattack are good skills, but they are in no means great skills.
As for the crit bonuses, remember that at always high morale, the critical chance rate is around 10% all the time. Normal morale is 5%. And anything less than normal morale, forget it! A ring can counter this, but you’ll probably gonna want to give either the gallic war book or the military map to your archer generals.
Finally, 300 damage on an archer is very uncommon to say the least. I have never seen my Caesar do 300 damage on even a marksman unit. The only unit where that is even possible is on either a javilineer or a horse cavarly, and we don’t get those all of the time.
I have to say that for an archer, actually surviving is more important than the extra damage the can potentially deal. The only real damage that drusus loses against common is his terrain bonus, but really that isn’t a huge defect.
|
|
|
|
Post by dsongop on Jul 31, 2019 12:26:32 GMT
You just have to be selective about your attacks with archers. For example it is stupid to put your archer general solo against Octavian/Caesar in campaign. Since we obviously have the option to move units to where we wish in accordance with their mobility, you can almost guarantee to activate one of Octavian's damage output skills. stoic, I would like to ask you, do you think Drussus is as good as Mith VI or Caesar then, since it is difficult to manage their morale and trigger advantage? Is the only thing that is appealing about Caesar his talent, rank, and 9-star capability? Octavian has both beseige and commander, and counterattack to match their terrain skills. Is Drussus just as good as Caesar and Mithridates fully upgraded just because of his insane talent? |
|
|
|
Post by andrei on Jul 31, 2019 12:32:23 GMT
You just have to be selective about your attacks with archers. For example it is stupid to put your archer general solo against Octavian/Caesar in campaign. Since we obviously have the option to move units to where we wish in accordance with their mobility, you can almost guarantee to activate one of Octavian's damage output skills. stoic , I would like to ask you, do you think Drussus is as good as Mith VI or Caesar then, since it is difficult to manage their morale and trigger advantage? Is the only thing that is appealing about Caesar his talent, rank, and 9-star capability? Octavian has both beseige and commander, and counterattack to match their terrain skills. Is Drussus just as good as Caesar and Mithridates fully upgraded just because of his insane talent? , Ceaser has 15% from aura. It is 100% similar effect as Inspire (or better to say high morale) provides. So, their talents are equal if we won't take into account Ceaser allies buff. So Ceaser has no disadvantage even with talent. He is no doubt better. Other gens are worse because of the Inspire effect - that's the point stoic insists on mainly. |
|
|
|
Post by stoic on Jul 31, 2019 12:41:44 GMT
You just have to be selective about your attacks with archers. For example it is stupid to put your archer general solo against Octavian/Caesar in campaign. Since we obviously have the option to move units to where we wish in accordance with their mobility, you can almost guarantee to activate one of Octavian's damage output skills. stoic, I would like to ask you, do you think Drussus is as good as Mith VI or Caesar then, since it is difficult to manage their morale and trigger advantage? Is the only thing that is appealing about Caesar his talent, rank, and 9-star capability? Octavian has both beseige and commander, and counterattack to match their terrain skills. Is Drussus just as good as Caesar and Mithridates fully upgraded just because of his insane talent? I really think it is very difficult to compare them with precision. Drusus is really unlike other archers. He has few trumps in comparison to them, but these are very powerful ones. As Deleted mentioned Inspire, plus Advantage, plus a crossbow is a very powerful combination... Like a two-handed sword - a simple weapon but a very effective and brutal one. And the higher is the quality of his units, the better is his performance. He can severely damage elite units having only two javelineers in a legion. I saw it many times. I think that brute force he possesses can be very helpful to the player. But fully upgraded Mithridates and Caesar are better, of course, because potentially their critical damage and frequency can as high as those of Drusus, while they have other advantages over him. And it is possible to maintain high moral of your best archer. I doubt though, that it so easy to maintain it in all other cases. Too many things happen on the battlefield... After AI's turn half of your generals can have low moral, rather that the high one. Maybe in Expedition things are different, but in campaigns that is the case. And it is close to impossible to maintain high moral of your generals in battles with battle hardened legionaries and javelineers. I really doubt that our main opponents will be auxiliary units or swordsmen in later campaigns. |
|
|
|
Post by stoic on Jul 31, 2019 12:43:34 GMT
You just have to be selective about your attacks with archers. For example it is stupid to put your archer general solo against Octavian/Caesar in campaign. Since we obviously have the option to move units to where we wish in accordance with their mobility, you can almost guarantee to activate one of Octavian's damage output skills. stoic , I would like to ask you, do you think Drussus is as good as Mith VI or Caesar then, since it is difficult to manage their morale and trigger advantage? Is the only thing that is appealing about Caesar his talent, rank, and 9-star capability? Octavian has both beseige and commander, and counterattack to match their terrain skills. Is Drussus just as good as Caesar and Mithridates fully upgraded just because of his insane talent? , Ceaser has 15% from aura. It is 100% similar effect as Inspire (or better to say high morale) provides. So, their talents are equal if we won't take into account Ceaser allies buff. So Ceaser has no disadvantage even with talent. He is no doubt better. Other gens are worse because of the Inspire effect - that's the point stoic insists on mainly. Inspire plus Advantage plus crossbow, to be precise |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 13:19:43 GMT
Caesar is the best archer excluding any archer commanders. So here are the stats of the 3 candidates to hold 2nd place.    All start as general rank. Mithridates has 7 points initially for archer, both Octavian and Drusus has 5 points for Archers. Mithridates' talent is scare(20% crit if he has a larger force than the enemy)has advantage(lvl3), archer commander(lvl2),jungle fighting(lvl 3) and besiege(lvl 3). Octavian has a talent that gives +10 crit, and skills are Accuracy(lvl 2),Counterattack (lvl 3),archer commander(lvl 2) and besiege(lvl 4). Drusus has the almighty Inspire, with only 1 skill(lvl 3 advantage). His other skills can be ignored, but it helps against rogue enemy ai's deciding to attack you for some reason. Mithridates' talent synergizes with advantage and besiege. Archer commander makes this guy a monster, although you need scrolls to make him reach lvl 4 archer commander to make it a bit consistent. Jungle fighting is okay. Octavian's talent is okay and doesn't exactly synergize with any of his skills. Accuracy is okay, a +10 against cavalry is okay overtime. Counterattack is weird, and can be used if you plan to give octavian hp items, but ultimately it isn't a good skill for him, just an okay addition to his arsenal. Archer commander is great, but again, being lvl 2 makes it not consistent. Besiege, being lvl 4, deals 20 damage to enemies with a smaller force against him. Overall, Octavian's skills do not have that much synergy with each other, and cleopatra will be as useful and deal as much damage as him most of the time. Drusus is a weird one. He has Inspire, the greatest skill only below aura talents and your commander's talent. His 2 defensive skills are pretty much bad, but a lvl 3 advantage makes it so he has a free 15% crit chance, more than our boy Octavian. That combination alone of Inspiration + advantage makes him great, and that his damage is pretty much consistent. Pretty sad that he lacks archer commander, because if he does, then he's the number 1 archer, what's a Caesar? Now, for the argument why Mithridates with a talent that is situational is better than Octavian's consistent +10 crit chance is simply because you can easily take advantage of it, and it's +10% more crit. Just hit some unit and bring him down to a unit force lower than you, and that enemy unit is pretty much screwed. Mithridates will have a maximum 55% crit chance with a crossbow(not including natural crit chance of units) against units with a lower force than him, plus an additional +20 damage. Octavian is easily the worse of the 3. His skills do not synergize, he lacks the crit chance, he pretty much is a more expensive slightly better Cleopatra. Mithridates is definitely number 2. Even if his morale is lowered, as long as you can maintain his legion , then he'll still dish out damage. Just max out his Archer commander, and watch units melt before him. Drusus is slightly below Mithridates. Consistent damage + high crit chance makes him great. Mithridates just has Archer commander, and without it, Drusus will be better than Mithridates. |
|
|
|
Post by stoic on Jul 31, 2019 13:31:38 GMT
Caesar is the best archer excluding any archer commanders. So here are the stats of the 3 candidates to hold 2nd place. All start as general rank. Mithridates has 7 points initially for archer, both Octavian and Drusus has 5 points for Archers. Mithridates' talent is scare(20% crit if he has a larger force than the enemy)has advantage(lvl3), archer commander(lvl2),jungle fighting(lvl 3) and besiege(lvl 3). Octavian has a talent that gives +10 crit, and skills are Accuracy(lvl 2),Counterattack (lvl 3),archer commander(lvl 2) and besiege(lvl 4). Drusus has the almighty Inspire, with only 1 skill(lvl 3 advantage). His other skills can be ignored, but it helps against rogue enemy ai's deciding to attack you for some reason. Mithridates' talent synergizes with advantage and besiege. Archer commander makes this guy a monster, although you need scrolls to make him reach lvl 4 archer commander to make it a bit consistent. Jungle fighting is okay. Octavian's talent is okay and doesn't exactly synergize with any of his skills. Accuracy is okay, a +10 against cavalry is okay overtime. Counterattack is weird, and can be used if you plan to give octavian hp items, but ultimately it isn't a good skill for him, just an okay addition to his arsenal. Archer commander is great, but again, being lvl 2 makes it not consistent. Besiege, being lvl 4, deals 20 damage to enemies with a smaller force against him. Overall, Octavian's skills do not have that much synergy with each other, and cleopatra will be as useful and deal as much damage as him most of the time. Drusus is a weird one. He has Inspire, the greatest skill only below aura talents and your commander's talent. His 2 defensive skills are pretty much bad, but a lvl 3 advantage makes it so he has a free 15% crit chance, more than our boy Octavian. That combination alone of Inspiration + advantage makes him great, and that his damage is pretty much consistent. Pretty sad that he lacks archer commander, because if he does, then he's the number 1 archer, what's a Caesar? Now, for the argument why Mithridates with a talent that is situational is better than Octavian's consistent +10 crit chance is simply because you can easily take advantage of it, and it's +10% more crit. Just hit some unit and bring him down to a unit force lower than you, and that enemy unit is pretty much screwed. Mithridates will have a maximum 55% crit chance with a crossbow(not including natural crit chance of units) against units with a lower force than him, plus an additional +20 damage. Octavian is easily the worse of the 3. His skills do not synergize, he lacks the crit chance, he pretty much is a more expensive slightly better Cleopatra. Mithridates is definitely number 2. Even if his morale is lowered, as long as you can maintain his legion , then he'll still dish out damage. Just max out his Archer commander, and watch units melt before him. Drusus is slightly below Mithridates. Consistent damage + high crit chance makes him great. Mithridates just has Archer commander, and without it, Drusus will be better than Mithridates. Even I couldn't do it better |
|
I am talking about morale maintaining. It is very easy. Or You disagree? 
"
