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Post by kingbutawl on Jul 30, 2019 19:52:30 GMT
andrei , since the argument of Drusus being good or not will never resolve, let's just agree that Tigranes II is the best archer, and all archers, even Caesar, is below him Why there is no hype around Pacorus I? I mean everybody agrees he is great starting gen, but only starting. Noone is trying to compare him with top tier cavalry generals. And Drusus is basically archer Pacorus. Real power is just Inspire. There is nothing else unfortunately. Andrei , I use Pacorus I together with Scipio and they are almost the same (just 20-40 difference in damage) , but I'm not considering critical damage . Tbh when you have Scipio , Pacorus is enough (I'm not underestimating Arminius , but if you don't have medals you better forget him). That shiny skill that makes you deal more damage to stronger units (contrarily to what the Youtuber Juljas says) is pure gold if combined with high morale and 7 points in cavalry .
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Post by stoic on Jul 30, 2019 19:54:08 GMT
stoic, You calculation and experience about the ring is strange. You have base chance to increase morale after attack + increase if legion/unit killed + 50% from ring. Plus You are attacked as well, means counter attack can trigger it. Ring is awesome item as morale is constant increased attack (and duration is good) besides increased crit. Just like Inspire. Crossbow is good, but it is item giving something when You crit only. Otherwise just occupies slot with no effect. Crossbow is only good for gens having both skill+talent. If there were only our turns it could be much more stable, but when AI attacks, a single militia unit can disturb high moral provided by killing or rings (even Orations). I experienced it many times. I think that in case of Drusus a crossbow is a better weapon because it guarantees 35-40% of critical attack rate. Otherwise I think a simple Gladius is better than rings or crossbows in many situations...
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Post by andrei on Jul 30, 2019 20:01:00 GMT
Why there is no hype around Pacorus I? I mean everybody agrees he is great starting gen, but only starting. Noone is trying to compare him with top tier cavalry generals. And Drusus is basically archer Pacorus. Real power is just Inspire. There is nothing else unfortunately. Andrei , I use Pacorus I together with Scipio and they are almost the same (just 20-40 difference in damage) , but I'm not considering critical damage . Tbh when you have Scipio , Pacorus is enough (I'm not underestimating Arminius , but if you don't have medals you better forget him). That shiny skill that makes you deal more damage to stronger units (contrarily to what the Youtuber Juljas says) is pure gold if combined with high morale and 7 points in cavalry . Generally You are right. Difference between generals (unlike previous ET games) is not that big, because damage formula is different. Now most of the difference between gens is not in stats but in skills. Pretty sure skills of Your gens are not fully upgraded. We'll see the difference between Pacorus/Drusus and their competitors a bit later.. when people will have fully upgraded gens.
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Post by Friedrich “Fried Rice” Paulus on Jul 30, 2019 22:26:03 GMT
stoic, You calculation and experience about the ring is strange. You have base chance to increase morale after attack + increase if legion/unit killed + 50% from ring. Plus You are attacked as well, means counter attack can trigger it. Ring is awesome item as morale is constant increased attack (and duration is good) besides increased crit. Just like Inspire. Crossbow is good, but it is item giving something when You crit only. Otherwise just occupies slot with no effect. Crossbow is only good for gens having both skill+talent. And generally.. crit is always nice to see, but whether You always need it? Its a good item. But probably not ideal for a general. Archers have crappy mobility, infantry would probably benefit more from an hp item, and cavarly more from an attack item. I see how it is good, but not enough for me.
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Post by Lucius Vorenus on Jul 31, 2019 2:56:32 GMT
Some of these comparisons can be cleared up with simple math. Flat damage bonus skills will be harder to compare, but lets see what we get.
I did some brief testing comparing the damage of various units with normal and high morale. I did 1 stack of slinger with and without general, 3 stack of slinger with and without general, did the same with auxiliary to ensure the bonus is the same across different types, then finished with a 5 stack of marksmen, obviously only with a general. There are definitely some small discrepancies that I assume are the games way of rounding, but I am fairly confident that high morale is a 20% damage bonus, this puts the damage portion of the inspire talent on par with a commander skill at level 4.
20% crit chance from level 4 advantage is equal to a 10% damage bonus.
*Hide and rain of arrow are so situational they are pure garbage in my opinion. They belong in the same pool as skills like formation. Better than nothing is their defining feature. If someone else wants to create fairy tale situations that favor these skills to artificially increase Drussus value then go ahead, I will not be doing that here.*
So for comparison—
Vs Mith, commander skill counters the damage from inspire. So that leaves Drussus with his 10% damage from advantage to compare to the following-
—20% crit and 16 damage vs smaller force, 20 damage while in jungle, 6 damage from extra capability, 20% crit with high morale.
Vs Octavian, commander skill counters the damage from inspire, Octavian's talent reduces Drussus crit advantage in half. So that leaves Drussus with a 5% damage bonus to compare to the following-
—16 damage vs smaller force, 16 damage vs cavalry, 20 damage while counterattacking.
Now, both Mith and Octavian at this point are being compared at base moral.
Even so, Mith’s skills more than make up for 10% less damage imo. But give him high morale and the comparison becomes laughable. Instead of comparing Miths skills vs a 10% damage advantage, the tables turn and Mith ends up with a 20% damage advantage over Drussus, on top of his other skills/talent.
While Octavian’s comparison is weaker than Mith’s, Octavian only needs to overcome a 5% damage advantage, which is easily done anytime just 1 of his skills activates. Give Octavian high morale and once again the comparison becomes laughable.
Normally items have no place when comparing generals as most gens all receive the same benefits from the same items, but Inspire gens are an obvious exception as they are blocked from using very powerful items.
Crossbow provides a constant 7 1/2% damage bonus regardless of what general it is put on or how much crit chance the general already has.
Pompeii Gladius gives 15 flat damage. Its actual value fluctuates with the damage of the unit.
If your expecting normal hits to exceed 200, then crossbow is better, less than 200 your better off with a gladius.
Regardless, neither item on Drussus will propel him ahead of Mith or Octavian with laurel crown or gold ring. Between gold ring and oration, its extremely rare to be without high morale, especially on archers as they do not get counter attacked. If your letting your archer gens get flanked and surrounded, thats an issue you need to work out yourself, its not hard.
Giving Drussus golden spear will at best roughly even him out when on average units, for large stacks of elite units he will still fall behind with it. On a small stack of low tier units, it may push him ahead, I don’t care enough to do the math as I have better uses for the spear than trying to make Drussus better.
Obviously we will all have to come to our own conclusions, but imo gold rings and not being thick headed will put Octavian and Mith above Drussus 99% of the time. If you like to play reckless, or like sitting in cities defending against enemy archers, then by all means rate Drussus higher.
Thanks for reading my long rant lol.
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Post by andrei on Jul 31, 2019 4:09:00 GMT
stoic , You calculation and experience about the ring is strange. You have base chance to increase morale after attack + increase if legion/unit killed + 50% from ring. Plus You are attacked as well, means counter attack can trigger it. Ring is awesome item as morale is constant increased attack (and duration is good) besides increased crit. Just like Inspire. Crossbow is good, but it is item giving something when You crit only. Otherwise just occupies slot with no effect. Crossbow is only good for gens having both skill+talent. And generally.. crit is always nice to see, but whether You always need it? Its a good item. But probably not ideal for a general. Archers have crappy mobility, infantry would probably benefit more from an hp item, and cavarly more from an attack item. I see how it is good, but not enough for me. Ring = morale -》 higher attack and crit rate. Isn't it what we all are looking for our generals while comparing gens? I think this item is rightfully most expensive among gold items.
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Post by dsongop on Jul 31, 2019 7:12:23 GMT
I've even read an argument that Octavian is better than Mithridates VI, and even though I don't buy it, I think it is understandable. 1. Octavian's talent is better because in Mithridates' case, you usually don't attack units with a smaller force than your archer, and if you do, the unit will probably die under normal damage anyways 2. Octavian has 3 skills that guarantee consistent damage. Mithridates has jungle fighting, but since archers are so immobile, and jungles obstruct mobility, you have more freedom of movement when using Octavian. 3. Octavian's skills start off at a higher level, which means it costs less ultimately to max him out.
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Post by stoic on Jul 31, 2019 8:13:25 GMT
Lucius VorenusCan you explain (if possible without many phrases) obvious advantages of Octavian over Drusus? Just 1, 2, 3. As you say, even to compare them is laughable, so we can laugh together... All these statements that a great tactician always can keep moral of his units high are a joke, actually. First attack of AI's cavalry or archers and your high moral is fading away. It is as simple as that. Did you personally use rings in real campaigns and conquests? Can you demonstrate how to keep moral high using only a ring in one mission so that we can learn from your skills?
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Post by andrei on Jul 31, 2019 8:16:48 GMT
Lucius VorenusCan you explain (if possible without many phrases) obvious advantages of Octavian over Drusus? Just 1, 2, 3. As you say, even to compare them is laughable, so we can laugh together... All these statements that a great tactician always can keep moral of his units high are a joke, actually. First attack of AI's cavalry or archers and your high moral is fading away. It is as simple as that. Morale drops if You lose legion only, not from attack itself. But it also can be back if You kill the legion of the attacker.
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Post by stoic on Jul 31, 2019 8:26:09 GMT
Lucius VorenusCan you explain (if possible without many phrases) obvious advantages of Octavian over Drusus? Just 1, 2, 3. As you say, even to compare them is laughable, so we can laugh together... All these statements that a great tactician always can keep moral of his units high are a joke, actually. First attack of AI's cavalry or archers and your high moral is fading away. It is as simple as that. Morale drops if You lose legion only, not from attack itself. But it also can be back if You kill the legion of the attacker. How do you know it? I've seen moral drops even without loosing a legion, if I am not mistaken, but I am not sure about it.
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Post by andrei on Jul 31, 2019 8:30:04 GMT
Morale drops if You lose legion only, not from attack itself. But it also can be back if You kill the legion of the attacker. How do you know it? I've seen moral drops even without loosing a legion, if I am not mistaken, but I am not sure about it. I've spent several hours fighting in Expedition to increase level of my generals Moral drop is because of the loses only. Flanking of course. But not from simple attack. And if we are starting to lose legions with archer gen I don't care about morale - I need to pull back, as I either placed him wrong, attack the wrong enemy or simply overwhelmed. I don't care whether my archer die with high or low morale...
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Post by stoic on Jul 31, 2019 8:39:06 GMT
Drusus is better than Octavian while attacking Infantry.
Drusus is better than Octavian while attacking archers.
Drusus is equal to Octavian while attacking cavalry.
Drusus is equal to Octavian when he is in defence.
Drusus receives less damage from archers.
Drusus has higher critical rate.
The only one obvious advantage of Octavian over Drusus is AC, 20% of probability. That's all.
Oh, yes, Octavian is better while killing small units and is deployed by a genius who can always keep his moral high.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 8:50:03 GMT
I've had instances that my morale dropped when being attacked, even if I didn't lose a part of my legion. I dislike having low morale, that's why positioning is something to value for units. But, for instances where you just have to charge forward and risk being surrounded, that's where inspire is useful. And that happens a lot in campaign, especially the later parts. There's nothing more frustrating than having a 1 hp defender left alive in a city because your last unit that could hit it has morale down. I would have to change my stance a little bit on morale tho, and say I hyped it a little too much. Although, if pvp exists in this game, inspire and rumor would be top tier talents and even if the generals who have them have garbage skills, those talents alone will be a game changer. But since it's not, I'd say it won't matter that much which general you pick. I will still say that Drusus is top tier,simply because his talent + advantage is a great combination on it's own, and having consistent damage with around a 50% chance to crit if you invested in him is nice. His other skills are trash, and that keeps him from being the one above all. Your evaluation of him depends on how much you value morale into your strategy and tactics, which is interesting
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Post by andrei on Jul 31, 2019 8:54:16 GMT
Drusus is better than Octavian while attacking Infantry. Drusus is better than Octavian while attacking archers. Drusus is equal to Octavian while attacking cavalry. Drusus is equal to Octavian when he is in defence. Drusus receives less damage from archers. Drusus has higher critical rate. The only one obvious advantage of Octavian over Drusus is AC, 20% if probability. That's all. Oh, yes, Octavian is better while killing small units and is deployed by a genius who can always keep his moral high. stoic , You are asking explanation from Lucius Vorenus but not giving Yours. In case all explained with Inspire.. sorry, very minor advantage. Let's take archer fighting for example. You remember about Hide, but don't remember about Octavian's Counterattack. It is much better than Hide while fighting against archers, no? In case You place Inspire as a serious bonus, why don't You remember that Octavian's talent is also good. It makes Drusus Advantage skill less.. advantageous when we compare these two generals. And here we come to the point where Drusus is just a bit stronger but he has no more skills, while Octavian can bring Archer commander, Besiege (situationally) and Accuracy (and we anyway are trying to counter Cavalry with archer, so this skill is good for archer whatsoever). The only thing You need to do with Octavian is keep him at positive morale. Personally I never had problems with keeping my morale neutral or high (when it is really important) with any of my gens. Let's say the truth - it is extremely easy. If someone is toooo much concerned he can always swap items and put Laurel Crown. But there is no necessity to do that really.
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Post by stoic on Jul 31, 2019 9:28:42 GMT
Drusus is better than Octavian while attacking Infantry. Drusus is better than Octavian while attacking archers. Drusus is equal to Octavian while attacking cavalry. Drusus is equal to Octavian when he is in defence. Drusus receives less damage from archers. Drusus has higher critical rate. The only one obvious advantage of Octavian over Drusus is AC, 20% if probability. That's all. Oh, yes, Octavian is better while killing small units and is deployed by a genius who can always keep his moral high. stoic , You are asking explanation from Lucius Vorenus but not giving Yours. In case all explained with Inspire.. sorry, very minor advantage. Let's take archer fighting for example. You remember about Hide, but don't remember about Octavian's Counterattack. It is much better than Hide while fighting against archers, no? In case You place Inspire as a serious bonus, why don't You remember that Octavian's talent is also good. It makes Drusus Advantage skill less.. advantageous when we compare these two generals. And here we come to the point where Drusus is just a bit stronger but he has no more skills, while Octavian can bring Archer commander, Besiege (situationally) and Accuracy (and we anyway are trying to counter Cavalry with archer, so this skill is good for archer whatsoever). The only thing You need to do with Octavian is keep him at positive morale. Personally I never had problems with keeping my morale neutral or high (when it is really important) with any of my gens. Let's say the truth - it is extremely easy. If someone is toooo much concerned he can always swap items and put Laurel Crown. But there is no necessity to do that really. Counterattack gives us 20-25 points when defending - but Drusus already has these 20-25 points advantage over Octavian. Accuracy gives us 20 points when we are attacking cavalry - but Drusus already has these 20-25 points while attacking every unit on the battlefield. Accuracy and Counterattack do not give Octavian any advantage over Drusus. Yes, it is possible to give a ring to Octavian. But: 1. We can give items to Drusus as well. Items are not a part of Octavian. 2. Ring has only 50% of probability. The result is without any guarantee, especially late in the mission. 3. If we give a ring to Octavian - his chances of a critical attack is only 10%. And he is Cleopatra with counterattack. And, besides, critical damage is the best tool for defeating tough opponents.
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