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Post by Sun Li-jen of the Glorious RoC on Apr 15, 2020 12:09:22 GMT
Whoa, I just realized you're almost like ganging 3 on 1 against me. This will be interesting😄
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Post by Harry Lillis "Bing" Crosby Jr on Apr 15, 2020 12:10:58 GMT
Whoa, I just realized you're almost like ganging 3 on 1 against me. This will be interesting😄 You may think it is, but we are arguing different points. Firstly Risviltov has not replied; he has only received a rebuttal. Secondly, lumen is positing from the political/current affairs point of view. Lastly, I am merely introducing ideological concepts that undergird the discussion in relation to your question directed at me
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Post by Sun Li-jen of the Glorious RoC on Apr 15, 2020 12:25:41 GMT
Sun Li-jen of the Glorious RoC , you still dont get it. Ok firstly meritocracy is a real-life example, I do not know why you classify it as fantasy. Secondly, this is not poetry. This is the revelation of the human condition, which you dismiss as meaningless. I do not say that socialism/communism is good, and I do not again say that Marxism is tangible in society. I am saying that Capitalism is the most effective, thought it is not effective at all (I mentioned this point, wondered if you read what I wrote?). I hate online tiffs the most, and I dont wish to continue any longer, for it will always be fruitless and barbed. Let's keep this to the political; I dont think we are ready for an ideological dialogue I agree however, that capitalism is not flawless. But Marx didn't give any good solutions either. Even his writings about the 'flaws' of capitalism are not the real flaws. For example, he stated that not everyone has the same opportunity. It is true, however it is not a problem, the ones which the society need the most, will be the most successful ones. It is in schools and colleges btw, not all students have equal opportunity to attain high scores (it depends on students different individual intelligence) but the school must still mark their scores based on their competence. You can not force the college/school to give the same marks on all of their scores or mark their scores based on how much hardworks they put, but based on the individual competence. The economic implementation is, if you are rich since you were born, it is your ancestors who worked hard to serve the society's need, thus they were and eventually you are rich. If you do not want to give the REAL examples of Marx's ideas being implemented successfully, and you want me to read all of your long script, I'll read and analyze it anyways, give me time.
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Post by Sun Li-jen of the Glorious RoC on Apr 15, 2020 12:29:06 GMT
Whoa, I just realized you're almost like ganging 3 on 1 against me. This will be interesting😄 You may think it is, but we are arguing different points. Firstly Risviltov has not replied; he has only received a rebuttal. Secondly, lumen is positing from the political/current affairs point of view. Lastly, I am merely introducing ideological concepts that undergird the discussion in relation to your question directed at me Yes, I understand perfectly. That's I said "almost like". And arguing about three different topics at the same time is like playing three chess at the same time. I wonder if might end up being at a debate with 10 different people about different topics at the same time😄
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Post by Harry Lillis "Bing" Crosby Jr on Apr 15, 2020 12:59:56 GMT
Sun Li-jen of the Glorious RoC , you still dont get it. Ok firstly meritocracy is a real-life example, I do not know why you classify it as fantasy. Secondly, this is not poetry. This is the revelation of the human condition, which you dismiss as meaningless. I do not say that socialism/communism is good, and I do not again say that Marxism is tangible in society. I am saying that Capitalism is the most effective, thought it is not effective at all (I mentioned this point, wondered if you read what I wrote?). I hate online tiffs the most, and I dont wish to continue any longer, for it will always be fruitless and barbed. Let's keep this to the political; I dont think we are ready for an ideological dialogue I agree however, that capitalism is not flawless. But Marx didn't give any good solutions either. Even his writings about the 'flaws' of capitalism are not the real flaws. For example, he stated that not everyone has the same opportunity. It is true, however it is not a problem, the ones which the society need the most, will be the most successful ones. It is in schools and colleges btw, not all students have equal opportunity to attain high scores (it depends on students different individual intelligence) but the school must still mark their scores based on their competence. You can not force the college/school to give the same marks on all of their scores or mark their scores based on how much hardworks they put, but based on the individual competence. The economic implementation is, if you are rich since you were born, it is your ancestors who worked hard to serve the society's need, thus they were and eventually you are rich. If you do not want to give the REAL examples of Marx's ideas being implemented successfully, and you want me to read all of your long script, I'll read and analyze it anyways, give me time. I am not giving you examples of Marxist ideas being implemented in the literal society. Instead, as I have mentioned, I am introducing a literary framework that explains, through Marxism, why subjects do not want to acknowledge Capitalism's flaws and instead subscribe to its hegemonic control Society is comprised of a diverse range of people. The most successful ones have a correlation with being leaders in their fields or pioneering certain methods that improve mankind, but what happens to those who are unsuccessful? Vague definition of success here; I am assuming you refer to success in terms of economic capital (i.e. being wealthy, and achieved a certain social status). If that is so then there is still the lower-middle class, which make up the majority of any population in the globe. If it is not a problem, those who have this view are too high up on their ivory towers. I know this is steering in a political direction, where no one is ever right (opinion based). That's why Im not addressing that point for we are entitled to our own political sides and thoughts. Historically, even those who have not worked as hard are given economic benefits. For instance, those who supported a certain movement or sided with a certain ruler stood to gain benefits that were passed down in terms of social prestige down the years. One does not necessarily need to work hard in order to be in control of capital. Of course in today's society, meritocracy rules otherwise. Meritocracy need not be dogmatically restricted to the academic sphere. Let's say I'm a banana farmer or an industrial worker. If I cultivate 15 bunches of bananas, or if I manufacture 10 mugs, then I am entitled to a minimum wage. However, if I go the extra mile and farm/make 10 more bananas/mugs than any of my fellow coworkers do, I receive a bonus of lets say 30 arbitrary units. This may seem completely economic, empiricist or arithmetic. However, workers are still subscribing to meritocracy, the belief that if they work harder they will have greater access to capital. What they do not realize however, is that they are forced to do so in terms of ideology (dont work, no income and starve, break system and steal money, get jailed, punished now by the repressive state apparatus). They are not helping themselves, at the end of the day they are still workers being exploited for us having our breakfast, eating bananas while drinking coffee from our mugs. Mere cogs in the system, they are still workers, the lower class strata. I hope this is "authentic" enough for you.
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Post by Harry Lillis "Bing" Crosby Jr on Apr 15, 2020 13:09:00 GMT
Sun Li-jen of the Glorious RoC , you still dont get it. Ok firstly meritocracy is a real-life example, I do not know why you classify it as fantasy. Secondly, this is not poetry. This is the revelation of the human condition, which you dismiss as meaningless. I do not say that socialism/communism is good, and I do not again say that Marxism is tangible in society. I am saying that Capitalism is the most effective, thought it is not effective at all (I mentioned this point, wondered if you read what I wrote?). I hate online tiffs the most, and I dont wish to continue any longer, for it will always be fruitless and barbed. Let's keep this to the political; I dont think we are ready for an ideological dialogue I agree however, that capitalism is not flawless. But Marx didn't give any good solutions either. Even his writings about the 'flaws' of capitalism are not the real flaws. For example, he stated that not everyone has the same opportunity. It is true, however it is not a problem, the ones which the society need the most, will be the most successful ones. It is in schools and colleges btw, not all students have equal opportunity to attain high scores (it depends on students different individual intelligence) but the school must still mark their scores based on their competence. You can not force the college/school to give the same marks on all of their scores or mark their scores based on how much hardworks they put, but based on the individual competence. The economic implementation is, if you are rich since you were born, it is your ancestors who worked hard to serve the society's need, thus they were and eventually you are rich. If you do not want to give the REAL examples of Marx's ideas being implemented successfully, and you want me to read all of your long script, I'll read and analyze it anyways, give me time. Ok and now for your academic example. Do you realize that there is a correlation between intelligence and capital? I personally admit that I have sufficient access to capital, reading voraciously from an early age and having adequate access to various pre-education schools and classes. As to whether they are actually effective, I assume you will agree with me (if not I dont know how to help you). Not all bright students owe their intelligence to Nature and God (or not). Sometimes its a mix of both. Where does this individual intelligence variation come from again? Socioeconomic inequality. It is true that genetically if you set up an experiment across newborn test subjects they will show varying intelligence levels, for in Biology such inheritances are either from the parent's genes (unaffected by non-genetic manipulations like reading or studying more), or randomly predetermined. Your example however, is set in the context after rounds and rounds of intellectual priming, filtration and nurturing. Where do the mentioned events come from? Parental help, or simply put, social inequality. Academic institutions cannot do what you have mentioned, we both support this. But do you understand the link between hard work and competence? After all I did not go through education or pick up books for nothing, to be able to fare well in life so far, and engage in this discourse with you. It is precisely hard work that definitely improves competence. And in meritocracy, this is what mankind believes in and fervently performs. Unfortunately, it is true that schools, the workforce, or even life in general has to separate a cream from the crop. This is the reason for the continued exploitation and entrapment of such marginalized individuals who ultimately go on ignored and trampled on by society.
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Post by Seger on Apr 15, 2020 13:10:59 GMT
Sun Li-jen of the Glorious RoC , you still dont get it. Ok firstly meritocracy is a real-life example, I do not know why you classify it as fantasy. Secondly, this is not poetry. This is the revelation of the human condition, which you dismiss as meaningless. I do not say that socialism/communism is good, and I do not again say that Marxism is tangible in society. I am saying that Capitalism is the most effective, thought it is not effective at all (I mentioned this point, wondered if you read what I wrote?). I hate online tiffs the most, and I dont wish to continue any longer, for it will always be fruitless and barbed. Let's keep this to the political; I dont think we are ready for an ideological dialogue The problem with ideological debating or political philosophy is that it’s most of them time quite vague and open for interpretation. Also people tend to start saying against each other: you just don’t understand, as you and sunli are doing right now.
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Post by Harry Lillis "Bing" Crosby Jr on Apr 15, 2020 13:14:28 GMT
Sun Li-jen of the Glorious RoC , you still dont get it. Ok firstly meritocracy is a real-life example, I do not know why you classify it as fantasy. Secondly, this is not poetry. This is the revelation of the human condition, which you dismiss as meaningless. I do not say that socialism/communism is good, and I do not again say that Marxism is tangible in society. I am saying that Capitalism is the most effective, thought it is not effective at all (I mentioned this point, wondered if you read what I wrote?). I hate online tiffs the most, and I dont wish to continue any longer, for it will always be fruitless and barbed. Let's keep this to the political; I dont think we are ready for an ideological dialogue The problem with ideological debating or political philosophy is that it’s most of them time quite vague and open for interpretation. Also people tend to start saying against each other: you just don’t understand, as you and sunli are doing right now. That's true, we come from different backgrounds too. We can only achieve a coherent debate if we are both primed in political analysis, or ideological literature like we are respectively basing our ideas from. Then again, the idea of vagueness calls upon the fundamentals of Essentialist vs Anti-Essentialist Literature. Most of academic discourse, and my own opinions, are from the essentialist branch, so we are forwarding finite, clear theories, unfortunately not very accessible indeed
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Post by Harry Lillis "Bing" Crosby Jr on Apr 15, 2020 13:15:12 GMT
I dont partake much joy in literary discussions though, I am more passionate about history, and thats where im aiming to develop in my future career path, all ideologies aside
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Post by Harry Lillis "Bing" Crosby Jr on Apr 15, 2020 13:17:17 GMT
Alas praxis fails me once more... gotta move on to more cheerful topics I guess. Seger, you are part of the newsletter team am I right?
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Post by Seger on Apr 15, 2020 13:22:10 GMT
The problem with ideological debating or political philosophy is that it’s most of them time quite vague and open for interpretation. Also people tend to start saying against each other: you just don’t understand, as you and sunli are doing right now. That's true, we come from different backgrounds too. We can only achieve a coherent debate if we are both primed in political analysis, or ideological literature like we are respectively basing our ideas from. Then again, the idea of vagueness calls upon the fundamentals of Essentialist vs Anti-Essentialist Literature. Most of academic discourse, and my own opinions, are from the essentialist branch, so we are forwarding finite, clear theories, unfortunately not very accessible indeed Backgrounds do make a huge difference, your story about the meritocracy sounds very normal to me. The idea of not everyone has the same changes are very common in my bubble, it’s like one of the main themes of Dutch social Democratic Parties. That’s why our social democratic parties always are suspicious off extra help outside of schools because the lower classes can’t afford this kind of support. That’s why this idea doesn’t shock me at all and I don’t think it would shock most people I know.
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Post by Seger on Apr 15, 2020 13:22:41 GMT
Alas praxis fails me once more... gotta move on to more cheerful topics I guess. Seger, you are part of the newsletter team am I right? Yes I am
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Post by Harry Lillis "Bing" Crosby Jr on Apr 15, 2020 13:24:35 GMT
That's true, we come from different backgrounds too. We can only achieve a coherent debate if we are both primed in political analysis, or ideological literature like we are respectively basing our ideas from. Then again, the idea of vagueness calls upon the fundamentals of Essentialist vs Anti-Essentialist Literature. Most of academic discourse, and my own opinions, are from the essentialist branch, so we are forwarding finite, clear theories, unfortunately not very accessible indeed Backgrounds do make a huge difference, your story about the meritocracy sounds very normal to me. The idea of not everyone has the same changes are very common in my bubble, it’s like one of the main themes of Dutch social Democratic Parties. That’s why our social democratic parties always are suspicious off extra help outside of schools because the lower classes can’t afford this kind of support. That’s why this idea doesn’t shock me at all and I don’t think it would shock most people I know. I feel kind of lost when you guys dabble in current affairs too Thanks, great to know I got something there HAHAHA
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Post by Harry Lillis "Bing" Crosby Jr on Apr 15, 2020 13:26:10 GMT
Alas praxis fails me once more... gotta move on to more cheerful topics I guess. Seger , you are part of the newsletter team am I right? Yes I am ahaha ok. End of year project then, especially since we have so much to talk about with the recent global events. Should I get more ppl on board? Current staff seems inactive
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Post by Navia Lanoira on Apr 15, 2020 13:27:15 GMT
Ah s——- , here we go again. Another debate but i’m glad its finished.
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