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Post by randomperson on Jul 28, 2021 20:26:28 GMT
I love how this dumb attack on Rundstedt turned into an actually kinda serious discussion lol.
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Post by Gerd von Rundstedt on Jul 28, 2021 20:49:29 GMT
On Bayonet: In the long run, as you point out in Guerilla, IL does more damage. Damage is not something in which I care about consistency. If I desperately need High damage, I can s/l for a crit. Survival needs consistency. I would much rather Attack Monty with FS than Guerilla. If you say that you can s/l with Guerilla, you'd be right. However, instances in which you need more survivability are much more than those of which you need output. Plunder is still 13 HP every time you kill a stack on Infantry, and like 50 on an HT. That, coupled with attacking multiple times, and taking only 60% counters, is great. On the last note, I would have agreed with you before SF promotion was a thing, but now, it's trivial. It comes down to whether you want more damage reliably or survivability reliably. I think that Samurai is useless as I have never seen my Yamashita get anywhere close to low morale (he's always killing things) while 12% Plunder isn't great. I think it's kinda ironic how Rundstedt is underestimating Rundstedt while defending Rundstedt because Plunder is more than 13 HP usually. Because of promotions, you're going to have at least 30% more hp (although likely 60% more hp) so it is actually better than 13 HP per kill. Nevertheless, it's 8.33 kills to save 10 gold so it's like economics but much worse. All in all, I think that if it were not for movement Rundstedt would beat out Yamashita, but I went for Yamashita because of his price and 3 extra movement. Promotion does give +2, but I would rather stack +2+3=+5 with Yamashita. I never really value mobility much, so I stick with Rundstedt.
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Post by 曹操 on Jul 28, 2021 23:41:59 GMT
Rommel okay, but Yamashita? Seriously? Bayonet Charge is inferior to IL, Guerilla < FS, and Samurai < Plunder. In addition, Rundstedt's skill synergy is off the charts. Hah! Bayonet has reliable damage for you cautious people, and statistically, Guerilla will save more HP than FS. Samurai is much better than Plunder as Plunder is just 12% (IIRC) of a single stack. More mobility is important for infantry as Wiking is pretty slow. Well not really FS is totally better especially rundstedt has Plunder. So lets say +13Hp and The enemy only deals 4-6(Thanks to FS) which mean Rundstedt Generates 7-9 Hp each time defeating a unit. But yeah mobility is his main problem. For Bayonet and IL, i prefer IL since double attack counts more damage than Bayonet
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Post by randomperson on Jul 29, 2021 1:07:24 GMT
Hah! Bayonet has reliable damage for you cautious people, and statistically, Guerilla will save more HP than FS. Samurai is much better than Plunder as Plunder is just 12% (IIRC) of a single stack. More mobility is important for infantry as Wiking is pretty slow. Well not really FS is totally better especially rundstedt has Plunder. So lets say +13Hp and The enemy only deals 4-6(Thanks to FS) which mean Rundstedt Generates 7-9 Hp each time defeating a unit. But yeah mobility is his main problem. For Bayonet and IL, i prefer IL since double attack counts more damage than Bayonet Uhhhh no? 1. I have never seen the enemy do only 4-6 damage to you even with FS. 2. Guerilla is still better. It is on average 50% reduction while FS is 40%. Do the math and you will see that 50>40. I agree IL>Bayonet.
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Post by 曹操 on Jul 29, 2021 1:42:50 GMT
Uhhhh no? 1. I have never seen the enemy do only 4-6 damage to you even with FS. 2. Guerilla is still better. It is on average 50% reduction while FS is 40%. Do the math and you will see that 50>40. I agree IL>Bayonet.[/quote] 1.4-6 damage if you are against Inf and Rundstedt also has FS so the damage will be that low (i has witnessed it myself) . Yama is better as Inf/Art Killer while Rundstedt is Tank Killer give Rundstedt Grenadier+SF will be very useful since Rundstedt will get +65% damage reduction and Heavy Tank usually has high damage output towards inf. 2. No Guerilla has 50% chance so you bet 50:50 meanwhile FS will trigger everytime you got attacked. And Guerilla won't triggered if enemy attacks you while fs will be triggered. 3. IL imo Better especially if you give Rundstedt Cossack, he will kill all those Inf
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Post by John Marston on Jul 29, 2021 6:06:16 GMT
Rundstedt is a survivor. Yamashita is a heavy hitter. Since infantry can be replenished easily, survivability can be thrown away and hence, Yamashita is better.
BUT!! Rundstedt DOES NOT SUCKS!!
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Post by 6Johnny23 on Jul 29, 2021 12:40:21 GMT
Hah! Bayonet has reliable damage for you cautious people, and statistically, Guerilla will save more HP than FS. Samurai is much better than Plunder as Plunder is just 12% (IIRC) of a single stack. More mobility is important for infantry as Wiking is pretty slow. On Bayonet: In the long run, as you point out in Guerilla, IL does more damage. Damage is not something in which I care about consistency. If I desperately need High damage, I can s/l for a crit. Survival needs consistency. I would much rather Attack Monty with FS than Guerilla. If you say that you can s/l with Guerilla, you'd be right. However, instances in which you need more survivability are much more than those of which you need output. Plunder is still 13 HP every time you kill a stack on Infantry, and like 50 on an HT. That, coupled with attacking multiple times, and taking only 60% counters, is great. On the last note, I would have agreed with you before SF promotion was a thing, but now, it's trivial. Why on earth would you put Rundstedt on a HT? His 2*s in tanks is trash, 0*s in mobility, trash, outclassed in HT generals, etc. Nobody is desperate enough or in that much of a pickle t put Rundstedt on a HT, as 2 of his skills rendered useless. Once again, Guerilla is mathematically proven to be more effective than FS, allow me to explain. There is a unit that always does 50 damage. Simple. Yamashita hits it 2 times. One time, he dodges the counter, the other, the counter hits. 50 damage for Yamashita. Rundstedt does the same, hitting it 2 times. 100-40-60 for the percent and 100x.6=60. 50 damage taken for Yamashita, 60 for Rundstedt. And you attacking Monty with FS is a preference. Like you like Ushijima is a preference. I on the other hand, would attack Monty with Guerilla, etc. Plunder is 13 HP, but say you are going up against a 2-stack infantry. Since Rundstedt only has shiny infantry stars and no actual damaging skills, he might kill a stack. Then what? Kill another stack with 24% IL (great btw), or have it fail and you use another turn. Finally, 13 HP, when you lose much more and realize if you are one of the 76% people for IL to fail on you, "Hey, Logistics is better than this." And the Wiking is the best Axis infantry, when Tier 3 with no promotions only +1 mobility. Unless you are an expert or on a challenge and give Rundstedt a Cossack, he will be noticeably slow.
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Post by John Marston on Jul 29, 2021 12:48:20 GMT
On Bayonet: In the long run, as you point out in Guerilla, IL does more damage. Damage is not something in which I care about consistency. If I desperately need High damage, I can s/l for a crit. Survival needs consistency. I would much rather Attack Monty with FS than Guerilla. If you say that you can s/l with Guerilla, you'd be right. However, instances in which you need more survivability are much more than those of which you need output. Plunder is still 13 HP every time you kill a stack on Infantry, and like 50 on an HT. That, coupled with attacking multiple times, and taking only 60% counters, is great. On the last note, I would have agreed with you before SF promotion was a thing, but now, it's trivial. Why on earth would you put Rundstedt on a HT? His 2*s in tanks is trash, 0*s in mobility, trash, outclassed in HT generals, etc. Nobody is desperate enough or in that much of a pickle t put Rundstedt on a HT, as 2 of his skills rendered useless. Once again, Guerilla is mathematically proven to be more effective than FS, allow me to explain. There is a unit that always does 50 damage. Simple. Yamashita hits it 2 times. One time, he dodges the counter, the other, the counter hits. 50 damage for Yamashita. Rundstedt does the same, hitting it 2 times. 100-40-60 for the percent and 100x.6=60. 50 damage taken for Yamashita, 60 for Rundstedt. And you attacking Monty with FS is a preference. Like you like Ushijima is a preference. I on the other hand, would attack Monty with Guerilla, etc. Plunder is 13 HP, but say you are going up against a 2-stack infantry. Since Rundstedt only has shiny infantry stars and no actual damaging skills, he might kill a stack. Then what? Kill another stack with 24% IL (great btw), or have it fail and you use another turn. Finally, 13 HP, when you lose much more and realize if you are one of the 76% people for IL to fail on you, "Hey, Logistics is better than this." And the Wiking is the best Axis infantry, when Tier 3 with no promotions only +1 mobility. Unless you are an expert or on a challenge and give Rundstedt a Cossack, he will be noticeably slow. Mr. Mathematician However, the whole point of this is whether he sucks or not. Simply, he doesn't. He is, I feel = MacArthur.
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Post by 曹操 on Jul 29, 2021 12:50:23 GMT
Why on earth would you put Rundstedt on a HT? His 2*s in tanks is trash, 0*s in mobility, trash, outclassed in HT generals, etc. Nobody is desperate enough or in that much of a pickle t put Rundstedt on a HT, as 2 of his skills rendered useless. Once again, Guerilla is mathematically proven to be more effective than FS, allow me to explain. There is a unit that always does 50 damage. Simple. Yamashita hits it 2 times. One time, he dodges the counter, the other, the counter hits. 50 damage for Yamashita. Rundstedt does the same, hitting it 2 times. 100-40-60 for the percent and 100x.6=60. 50 damage taken for Yamashita, 60 for Rundstedt. And you attacking Monty with FS is a preference. Like you like Ushijima is a preference. I on the other hand, would attack Monty with Guerilla, etc. Plunder is 13 HP, but say you are going up against a 2-stack infantry. Since Rundstedt only has shiny infantry stars and no actual damaging skills, he might kill a stack. Then what? Kill another stack with 24% IL (great btw), or have it fail and you use another turn. Finally, 13 HP, when you lose much more and realize if you are one of the 76% people for IL to fail on you, "Hey, Logistics is better than this." And the Wiking is the best Axis infantry, when Tier 3 with no promotions only +1 mobility. Unless you are an expert or on a challenge and give Rundstedt a Cossack, he will be noticeably slow. 1. Gerdy put Rundstedt on HT simply due to FS (which reduce damage taken which is quite useful since Panzer units will heavily attacked most of the time) and Plunder (Inf attack is weak so let do the Math example inf attack, Plunder give +13 Hp so 13-13=0 which means he doesn't get any damage except arty/panzer, they deal heavier damage which means Plunder useless. Although idk why would you give Rundstedt HT. 2. Guerilla has 50:50 chance so it won't always trigger, FS will always trigger and FS can be stacked with Grenadier 25% damage reduction so Rundstedt will get 65% damage reduction and this is why always give Rundstedt Grenadier while Yama is better with Wiking. 3. If rundstedt with Grenadier againts monty Rundstedt will have better survivability chance Than Yama with Grenadier simply due to those damage reduction. 4. Yeah BC is a little bit better than IL
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Post by 6Johnny23 on Jul 29, 2021 12:54:58 GMT
Hah! Bayonet has reliable damage for you cautious people, and statistically, Guerilla will save more HP than FS. Samurai is much better than Plunder as Plunder is just 12% (IIRC) of a single stack. More mobility is important for infantry as Wiking is pretty slow. Well not really FS is totally better especially rundstedt has Plunder. So lets say +13Hp and The enemy only deals 4-6(Thanks to FS) which mean Rundstedt Generates 7-9 Hp each time defeating a unit. But yeah mobility is his main problem. For Bayonet and IL, i prefer IL since double attack counts more damage than Bayonet I have already given this example in this this thread but here I go again. There is an enemy that always does 50 damage with infinite HP. The generals attack 2 times. For Yamashita, on counterattack misses and one hits. 50 damage taken. Rundstedt on the other hand 100-40=60 for the percentage of damage taken, 100x.6=60. 60 damage taken for Runstedt. Of course, you can get luck or unlucky with Guerilla, but this is just the standard 50%. Plunder only does 13, and in a real situation, no unit does 10 base damage, so you almost always will lose health in a battle, not gain it. Bayonet is 12 damage constantly. IL is 2x attack 24% of the time. And I'm going to be real here. I doubt that it's a quarter of the time, but sure. If so, Rundstedt does hit harder. Rundstedt is like a glass cannon. Stuck in mud. But the glass is coated with steel.
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Post by 6Johnny23 on Jul 29, 2021 13:03:13 GMT
Why on earth would you put Rundstedt on a HT? His 2*s in tanks is trash, 0*s in mobility, trash, outclassed in HT generals, etc. Nobody is desperate enough or in that much of a pickle t put Rundstedt on a HT, as 2 of his skills rendered useless. Once again, Guerilla is mathematically proven to be more effective than FS, allow me to explain. There is a unit that always does 50 damage. Simple. Yamashita hits it 2 times. One time, he dodges the counter, the other, the counter hits. 50 damage for Yamashita. Rundstedt does the same, hitting it 2 times. 100-40-60 for the percent and 100x.6=60. 50 damage taken for Yamashita, 60 for Rundstedt. And you attacking Monty with FS is a preference. Like you like Ushijima is a preference. I on the other hand, would attack Monty with Guerilla, etc. Plunder is 13 HP, but say you are going up against a 2-stack infantry. Since Rundstedt only has shiny infantry stars and no actual damaging skills, he might kill a stack. Then what? Kill another stack with 24% IL (great btw), or have it fail and you use another turn. Finally, 13 HP, when you lose much more and realize if you are one of the 76% people for IL to fail on you, "Hey, Logistics is better than this." And the Wiking is the best Axis infantry, when Tier 3 with no promotions only +1 mobility. Unless you are an expert or on a challenge and give Rundstedt a Cossack, he will be noticeably slow. 1. Gerdy put Rundstedt on HT simply due to FS (which reduce damage taken which is quite useful since Panzer units will heavily attacked most of the time) and Plunder (Inf attack is weak so let do the Math example inf attack, Plunder give +13 Hp so 13-13=0 which means he doesn't get any damage except arty/panzer, they deal heavier damage which means Plunder useless. Although idk why would you give Rundstedt HT. 2. Guerilla has 50:50 chance so it won't always trigger, FS will always trigger and FS can be stacked with Grenadier 25% damage reduction so Rundstedt will get 65% damage reduction and this is why always give Rundstedt Grenadier while Yama is better with Wiking. 3. If rundstedt with Grenadier againts monty Rundstedt will have better survivability chance Than Yama with Grenadier simply due to those damage reduction. 4. Yeah BC is a little bit better than IL 1. My mistake, but you still have no reason to put him on a prized HT (early on). 2. My example is mathematical. 50/50 is easier to calculate with an even number, and 2/3 good results is 66%. (0 G, 1 G, 2 G). And my only tip for the latter is, you ought to be careful when attacking armour. 3. Depends, but based on my calculations just with another variable, no. Be aware I'm assuming, but please point me wrong if I'm wrong. 4. Depends on luck honestly.
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Post by Gerd von Rundstedt on Jul 29, 2021 13:07:40 GMT
Well not really FS is totally better especially rundstedt has Plunder. So lets say +13Hp and The enemy only deals 4-6(Thanks to FS) which mean Rundstedt Generates 7-9 Hp each time defeating a unit. But yeah mobility is his main problem. For Bayonet and IL, i prefer IL since double attack counts more damage than Bayonet I have already given this example in this this thread but here I go again. There is an enemy that always does 50 damage with infinite HP. The generals attack 2 times. For Yamashita, on counterattack misses and one hits. 50 damage taken. Rundstedt on the other hand 100-40=60 for the percentage of damage taken, 100x.6=60. 60 damage taken for Runstedt. Of course, you can get luck or unlucky with Guerilla, but this is just the standard 50%. Plunder only does 13, and in a real situation, no unit does 10 base damage, so you almost always will lose health in a battle, not gain it. Bayonet is 12 damage constantly. IL is 2x attack 24% of the time. And I'm going to be real here. I doubt that it's a quarter of the time, but sure. If so, Rundstedt does hit harder. Rundstedt is like a glass cannon. Stuck in mud. But the glass is coated with steel. IL is a quarter, but I find Plunder nor Samurai useful on infantry. That's the thing with Guerilla, though. It's on and off. If I'm attacking a standard infantry, I would want Guerilla, because it would reduce the already little damage I receive by more that 40%. If I am attacking Monty, I want there to be a 100% chance for me to not get completely demolished.
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Post by 6Johnny23 on Jul 29, 2021 13:14:29 GMT
I have already given this example in this this thread but here I go again. There is an enemy that always does 50 damage with infinite HP. The generals attack 2 times. For Yamashita, on counterattack misses and one hits. 50 damage taken. Rundstedt on the other hand 100-40=60 for the percentage of damage taken, 100x.6=60. 60 damage taken for Runstedt. Of course, you can get luck or unlucky with Guerilla, but this is just the standard 50%. Plunder only does 13, and in a real situation, no unit does 10 base damage, so you almost always will lose health in a battle, not gain it. Bayonet is 12 damage constantly. IL is 2x attack 24% of the time. And I'm going to be real here. I doubt that it's a quarter of the time, but sure. If so, Rundstedt does hit harder. Rundstedt is like a glass cannon. Stuck in mud. But the glass is coated with steel. IL is a quarter, but I find Plunder nor Samurai useful on infantry. That's the thing with Guerilla, though. It's on and off. If I'm attacking a standard infantry, I would want Guerilla, because it would reduce the already little damage I receive by more that 40%. If I am attacking Monty, I want there to be a 100% chance for me to not get completely demolished. Respectable playing style, but I just go with the one that's mathematically superior. But Rundstedt is not bad per say. Just outclassed, and if you want to look at it with other lenses, is not outcalssed.
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Post by Gerd von Rundstedt on Jul 29, 2021 13:16:35 GMT
IL is a quarter, but I find Plunder nor Samurai useful on infantry. That's the thing with Guerilla, though. It's on and off. If I'm attacking a standard infantry, I would want Guerilla, because it would reduce the already little damage I receive by more that 40%. If I am attacking Monty, I want there to be a 100% chance for me to not get completely demolished. Respectable playing style, but I just go with the one that's mathematically superior. But Rundstedt is not bad per say. Just outclassed, and if you want to look at it with other lenses, is not outcalssed. That's the beauty of the game. Generals are different based on Playstyles.
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Post by randomperson on Jul 29, 2021 16:25:32 GMT
Uhhhh no? 1. I have never seen the enemy do only 4-6 damage to you even with FS. 2. Guerilla is still better. It is on average 50% reduction while FS is 40%. Do the math and you will see that 50>40. I agree IL>Bayonet. 1.4-6 damage if you are against Inf and Rundstedt also has FS so the damage will be that low (i has witnessed it myself) . Yama is better as Inf/Art Killer while Rundstedt is Tank Killer give Rundstedt Grenadier+SF will be very useful since Rundstedt will get +65% damage reduction and Heavy Tank usually has high damage output towards inf. 2. No Guerilla has 50% chance so you bet 50:50 meanwhile FS will trigger everytime you got attacked. And Guerilla won't triggered if enemy attacks you while fs will be triggered. 3. IL imo Better especially if you give Rundstedt Cossack, he will kill all those Inf [/quote] A special force is not a part of a general. Yamashita is good against Inf/Art because of wiking, not himself. Rundstedt is a tank killer because you gave him Grenadier. You can easily swap special forces. Also, for the axis you have Guderian+Leeb who are already great at killing tanks.
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