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Post by Gerd von Rundstedt on Sept 15, 2021 18:46:05 GMT
Pardon for the quick answers, I am in a hurry. 1. Okay, I'll give you that. On the side, I personally don't believe in the theory of evolution, I think that it can be proven just as easily as pegasi can. 2. I do not think it is the right of even the people to tell a number of people what they can or cannot eat. I believe that is what Alexis de Tocqueville would call tyranny of the majority. As for your second point in that statement, if one is already struggling to eat, is shaming them into restricting their diet a good thing? 3. Maybe in excess, but in terms of helping people's health, would not simple awareness of healthy diets cause one to be much healthier than (and I hate to repeat this phrase, but I cannot think of an alternative) simply shaming people into not eating meat? 4. Ah, this is the fundamental issue we disagree on. I think we are both going to be somewhat biased, you being an atheist and myself a very devout livestock farmer who also hunts. The question that has puzzled philosophers for centuries, nay, millenia. Is it morally acceptable to kill an animal. I think that causing an animal unnecessary pain is 100% wrong. We can agree on that. But I would also prefer getting cheap, filling food than to cause an animal no pain. As for climate change and methane farting, um, methane is like, a lot heavier than air. It is not able to rise into the outer atmosphere, even by your theory of climate change, which I happen to doubt. Even taking your hypothesis of climate change, methane cannot contribute significantly to greenhouse gases. I don't understand what you mean by unethically produced cows, but I assume you are talking about cramped stalls and such. For one, there are cities of people like that, but if we discount the need to take care of that beforehand, then again, cattle do not have the cognitive ability to be uncomfortable. They are selectively bred to be as dumb as possible. This argument is getting problematic, but thank you for the answers. 2. I don't think people should be forced to be vegan, but made aware of the impacts of eating meat. Also what I meant by democratic forcing, is taxing meat and introducing alternatives, gradually reducing meat consumption. 3. As I've said, alternatives should be introduced and things like synthetically produced meat could be a great option. 4. The cow industry is in many ways unethical and breeding them to be dumb is imo very unethical indeed (as would be if they weren't bred dumb, so there's problem). Cows' children (I don't remember the English word for that) are taken from their parents (don't remember that word either  ) quickly after birth to live in a small cage untill killed for meat. However thas is done because of milk so it is a bit off topic. Methane is a bit more than half of the density of air on sea level (I'm aware it will drop as we get higher). Methane has the second biggest impact on global warming after CO2, about 20%. You may not believe me and I could search for science defending my point, but I won't. I don't want to be disrespectful but if you don't believe me then you don't and I'm okay with that. Also I'm very thankful for everyones wise arguments that don't include argumentum ad hominems. In my country the climate and meat discussion often goes to calling the sides "green commies" and nazis. 2 & 3. Synthetic meat is much more expensive to harvest and raise than actual meat, without, again, the nutritional value, leading meat to be much more important for developing countries. But if we put that aside in countries that have vitamin supplements and huge GDP per capita like ours, then okay. 4. I actually think otherwise. For lack of a better analogy, I would rather be blind for my whole life than live half my life in color then have my eyes gouged out halfway through. And yes, with the smarter cows it is near impossible to get them to the slaughter with humane methods, so often people skirt regulations on that.  Yes, it is done for milk production, one of the top exports for businesses in my area. Dairy is honestly one of the more important products in the world, IMO right behind fossil fuels and grain in terms of demand. It is still IMO better than wasting the cattle meat (and the flora) by letting them go free. I'm not going to argue about the climate issue simply because it is a fact that neither of us will budge. About ad hominem, it is the same here. Even in a very politically homogenous area, everyone is incredibly nice (as I'm sure is the same in your country) until politics comes up. Then you're either a racist nazi science-denying homophobic nazi who has no idea how a government is supposed to work or a hippie communist craphead who as no idea how an economy is supposed to work. |
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Sept 15, 2021 19:03:56 GMT
This argument is getting problematic, but thank you for the answers. 2. I don't think people should be forced to be vegan, but made aware of the impacts of eating meat. Also what I meant by democratic forcing, is taxing meat and introducing alternatives, gradually reducing meat consumption. 3. As I've said, alternatives should be introduced and things like synthetically produced meat could be a great option. 4. The cow industry is in many ways unethical and breeding them to be dumb is imo very unethical indeed (as would be if they weren't bred dumb, so there's problem). Cows' children (I don't remember the English word for that) are taken from their parents (don't remember that word either ) quickly after birth to live in a small cage untill killed for meat. However thas is done because of milk so it is a bit off topic. Methane is a bit more than half of the density of air on sea level (I'm aware it will drop as we get higher). Methane has the second biggest impact on global warming after CO2, about 20%. You may not believe me and I could search for science defending my point, but I won't. I don't want to be disrespectful but if you don't believe me then you don't and I'm okay with that. Also I'm very thankful for everyones wise arguments that don't include argumentum ad hominems. In my country the climate and meat discussion often goes to calling the sides "green commies" and nazis. 2 & 3. Synthetic meat is much more expensive to harvest and raise than actual meat, without, again, the nutritional value, leading meat to be much more important for developing countries. But if we put that aside in countries that have vitamin supplements and huge GDP per capita like ours, then okay. 4. I actually think otherwise. For lack of a better analogy, I would rather be blind for my whole life than live half my life in color then have my eyes gouged out halfway through. And yes, with the smarter cows it is near impossible to get them to the slaughter with humane methods, so often people skirt regulations on that. Yes, it is done for milk production, one of the top exports for businesses in my area. Dairy is honestly one of the more important products in the world, IMO right behind fossil fuels and grain in terms of demand. It is still IMO better than wasting the cattle meat (and the flora) by letting them go free. I'm not going to argue about the climate issue simply because it is a fact that neither of us will budge. About ad hominem, it is the same here. Even in a very politically homogenous area, everyone is incredibly nice (as I'm sure is the same in your country) until politics comes up. Then you're either a racist nazi science-denying homophobic nazi who has no idea how a government is supposed to work or a hippie communist craphead who as no idea how an economy is supposed to work. 2/3. With synthetic meat, I meant lab produced meat, not the meat alternatives. Although I'm not sure what you meant. 4. Imo both are unethical and that is the problem with meat production, but it is meaningless to argue about personal values and such. It seems like when there's no acute problems in society, people have time to argue about everything unnecessary and when there are they can argue about, of course with ad hominems. But anyways it seems like we have come to a some kind of conclusion about our opinions, so I suggest before someone comes in and gets stuff heated and Saltin bans us. |
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Post by Gerd von Rundstedt on Sept 15, 2021 19:07:09 GMT
2 & 3. Synthetic meat is much more expensive to harvest and raise than actual meat, without, again, the nutritional value, leading meat to be much more important for developing countries. But if we put that aside in countries that have vitamin supplements and huge GDP per capita like ours, then okay. 4. I actually think otherwise. For lack of a better analogy, I would rather be blind for my whole life than live half my life in color then have my eyes gouged out halfway through. And yes, with the smarter cows it is near impossible to get them to the slaughter with humane methods, so often people skirt regulations on that. Yes, it is done for milk production, one of the top exports for businesses in my area. Dairy is honestly one of the more important products in the world, IMO right behind fossil fuels and grain in terms of demand. It is still IMO better than wasting the cattle meat (and the flora) by letting them go free. I'm not going to argue about the climate issue simply because it is a fact that neither of us will budge. About ad hominem, it is the same here. Even in a very politically homogenous area, everyone is incredibly nice (as I'm sure is the same in your country) until politics comes up. Then you're either a racist nazi science-denying homophobic nazi who has no idea how a government is supposed to work or a hippie communist craphead who as no idea how an economy is supposed to work. 2/3. With synthetic meat, I meant lab produced meat, not the meat alternatives. Although I'm not sure what you meant. 4. Imo both are unethical and that is the problem with meat production, but it is meaningless to argue about personal values and such. It seems like when there's no acute problems in society, people have time to argue about everything unnecessary and when there are they can argue about, of course with ad hominems. 2/3. Ah, I thought you were talking about meat alternatives, but even then, synthetic coal is more pressing IMO. 4. Okay, I don't mind what you believe. I agree on sentence two. It seems that when we are having acute problems in society we have to argue about everything unnecessary, like aristocrats arguing about which wine is the best during the French Revolution. Gosh, humanity is stupid! |
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Sept 15, 2021 19:11:52 GMT
2/3. With synthetic meat, I meant lab produced meat, not the meat alternatives. Although I'm not sure what you meant. 4. Imo both are unethical and that is the problem with meat production, but it is meaningless to argue about personal values and such. It seems like when there's no acute problems in society, people have time to argue about everything unnecessary and when there are they can argue about, of course with ad hominems. 2/3. Ah, I thought you were talking about meat alternatives, but even then, synthetic coal is more pressing IMO. 4. Okay, I don't mind what you believe. I agree on sentence two. It seems that when we are having acute problems in society we have to argue about everything unnecessary, like aristocrats arguing about which wine is the best during the French Revolution. Gosh, humanity is stupid! But of course lab produced meat is yet nowhere near to be mass produced. Here in my country, the corona discussion has calmed down so now we are talking about legalizing marijuana and funding of science. |
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Post by Gerd von Rundstedt on Sept 15, 2021 19:18:00 GMT
2/3. Ah, I thought you were talking about meat alternatives, but even then, synthetic coal is more pressing IMO. 4. Okay, I don't mind what you believe. I agree on sentence two. It seems that when we are having acute problems in society we have to argue about everything unnecessary, like aristocrats arguing about which wine is the best during the French Revolution. Gosh, humanity is stupid! But of course lab produced meat is yet nowhere near to be mass produced. Here in my country, the corona discussion has calmed down so now we are talking about legalizing marijuana and funding of science. 1. Of course. 2. HAHAHAHAHA NOT HERE. We already resolved legalization of marijuana (yes) and funding of scientific and historical institutions (No, if they want to run, they can either fund themselves, or find sponsors), but half the people here don't believe COVID is anything more dangerous than going to the bathroom, and the other half think that it can kill healthy adults and children. |
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Sept 15, 2021 19:31:11 GMT
But of course lab produced meat is yet nowhere near to be mass produced. Here in my country, the corona discussion has calmed down so now we are talking about legalizing marijuana and funding of science. 1. Of course. 2. HAHAHAHAHA NOT HERE. We already resolved legalization of marijuana (yes) and funding of scientific and historical institutions (No, if they want to run, they can either fund themselves, or find sponsors), but half the people here don't believe COVID is anything more dangerous than going to the bathroom, and the other half think that it can kill healthy adults and children. Yeah, before we were discussing about are tax funded broadcast service, but that has calmed down. One big argument is that are social studies science. As for marijuana, the only party that supports legalizing it atm is the Green party (which is a climate larty), but still it has caused so much Twitter drama. Here the arguing wasn't really about corona itself, but rather the right wing opposition complaining about the government's restrictions (especially concerning restaurants), which admittedly some of were very poor. |
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Post by 曹操 on Sept 15, 2021 22:55:30 GMT
It's okay not to be vegan, but you don't have to hate them just because they care about animals and the climate. Except when they start to veganise their pet too. It's unacceptable how do you think they would eat that Veggies? Their teeth is not an Omnivore nor a Herbivore. They have been carnivore for million of years. |
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Post by Manfred von Richthofen on Sept 16, 2021 0:06:10 GMT
woah.
chill
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Sept 16, 2021 4:48:23 GMT
It's okay not to be vegan, but you don't have to hate them just because they care about animals and the climate. Except when they start to veganise their pet too. It's unacceptable how do you think they would eat that Veggies? Their teeth is not an Omnivore nor a Herbivore. They have been carnivore for million of years. That's not okay, but I haven't known about that. But I do believe you and that's not okay. And that is not being only vegan anymore. |
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Sept 16, 2021 6:27:44 GMT
The discussion was totally respectful and controlled, no need to chill. |
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Post by Manfred von Richthofen on Sept 16, 2021 6:30:06 GMT
The discussion was totally respectful and controlled, no need to chill. yeah i mean the amount of text. its like a 1000 per page. |
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Post by 曹操 on Sept 16, 2021 6:31:40 GMT
The discussion was totally respectful and controlled, no need to chill. yeah i mean the amount of text. its like a 1000 per page. Well you usually need more explanation to support your argument in this kind of debate |
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Post by John Marston on Sept 17, 2021 13:11:38 GMT
I don't hate meat, neither cows. In fact, I love meat. It's just that, as that guy said, respect your meat. Know how it's prepared and how much the animals go through. |
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Post by Gerd von Rundstedt on Sept 17, 2021 14:38:49 GMT
I don't hate meat, neither cows. In fact, I love meat. It's just that, as that guy said, respect your meat. Know how it's prepared and how much the animals go through. I directly know how it prepared, I have done it a couple of times, and it isn't cruel, not really much worse than stripping a guy who was shot of his clothes, cutting him apart to see how they died, putting nice clothes on them, then leaving them to rot in the ground... |
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Post by zink on Sept 17, 2021 16:02:47 GMT
I don't hate meat, neither cows. In fact, I love meat. It's just that, as that guy said, respect your meat. Know how it's prepared and how much the animals go through. I directly know how it prepared, I have done it a couple of times, and it isn't cruel, not really much worse than stripping a guy who was shot of his clothes, cutting him apart to see how they died, putting nice clothes on them, then leaving them to rot in the ground... You're crazy You don't eat them afterwards? |
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) quickly after birth to live in a small cage untill killed for meat. However thas is done because of milk so it is a bit off topic.
