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Post by torvestareborn on Feb 21, 2022 21:09:33 GMT
i do understand because i literally completed the entire game with richard being my only iap. Im not saying easytech won't change the meta with updates, but this game is not hard to understand, you say there are 'lots of good unit skills' so it would be nice if you could give a few examples, i gave janissary as an example of a unit that can rival varangians and i explained why they are inferior. you can have a closer look at unit skills yourself and if you find anything interesting that would be useful/effective, then let us know, from my 3 weeks of playing it, you are limited to the number of units you can even recruit because a lot of them are locked e.g. janissary ande don't know when they will be released. i know at this stage, i can say templars/noble and varangians are miles ahead of all other units, but like i said you can test for yourself and see if you find anything different First, You haven't completed the game. You are probably not even in the midgame content right now. Second, I don't care when this or that unit will be unlocked and released. It will eventually be. And as I said this or that unit needs to be discussed. Your statement that varangian guard is the best unit is doubtful for me. Just for me. The skill set is crap. And the idea that everyone need to focus this unit and ignore the rest is false. Let's leave it this way. I am pretty sure it is better to save those resources for other units that will later be unlocked. What are those units? I don't know right now. It will take significant time for me to chose best combination/composition of the legion for this or that particular general. And with the help of the community most likely. That's why imo there is no need to instruct every community member to follow Your way. Your guide is here on the forum. That's very good. Really, no sarcasm. Nice to have it. But I doubt that we all need to accept it as the ultimate truth. i finished all the missions in normal and hard, i have nothing left to do now and i'm just waiting for update to release more content. We already know what all the other units will be even if they are not available to us now, we can just read their skill description which are pretty easy to understand for most skills. i already explained in other threads why mixing units is not a good idea unless you are mixing for example 1 counter inf + 2 range units because they both deal extra damage to cav, and range units need some protection anyway provided by the counter inf. |
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Post by andrei on Feb 21, 2022 21:22:02 GMT
First, You haven't completed the game. You are probably not even in the midgame content right now. Second, I don't care when this or that unit will be unlocked and released. It will eventually be. And as I said this or that unit needs to be discussed. Your statement that varangian guard is the best unit is doubtful for me. Just for me. The skill set is crap. And the idea that everyone need to focus this unit and ignore the rest is false. Let's leave it this way. I am pretty sure it is better to save those resources for other units that will later be unlocked. What are those units? I don't know right now. It will take significant time for me to chose best combination/composition of the legion for this or that particular general. And with the help of the community most likely. That's why imo there is no need to instruct every community member to follow Your way. Your guide is here on the forum. That's very good. Really, no sarcasm. Nice to have it. But I doubt that we all need to accept it as the ultimate truth. i finished all the missions in normal and hard, i have nothing left to do now and i'm just waiting for update to release more content. We already know what all the other units will be even if they are not available to us now, we can just read their skill description which are pretty easy to understand for most skills. i already explained in other threads why mixing units is not a good idea unless you are mixing for example 1 counter inf + 2 range units because they both deal extra damage to cav, and range units need some protection anyway provided by the counter inf. OK, You are a stubborn one. Look at this situation. Let's assume I am planning to use Edward I as one of my generals. And believe me many players will use many different generals. Because it is part of the fun. Why the heck do I need to follow Your advise to focus varangian guards!? May be I'ld like to put one Swiss Halberdiers into his legion. I need resources for that. There is no information what are the challenges we'll face later on. Right now the content You have completed could be completed with almost any setup. I am pretty sure. Because that's what normally happens with ET games. |
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Post by torvestareborn on Feb 21, 2022 21:27:44 GMT
i finished all the missions in normal and hard, i have nothing left to do now and i'm just waiting for update to release more content. We already know what all the other units will be even if they are not available to us now, we can just read their skill description which are pretty easy to understand for most skills. i already explained in other threads why mixing units is not a good idea unless you are mixing for example 1 counter inf + 2 range units because they both deal extra damage to cav, and range units need some protection anyway provided by the counter inf. OK, You are a stubborn one. Look at this situation. Let's assume I am planning to use Edward I as one of my generals. And believe me many players will use many different generals. Because it is part of the fun. Why the heck do I need to follow Your advise to focus varangian guards!? May be I'ld like to put one Swiss Halberdiers into his legion. I need resources for that. There is no information what are the challenges we'll face later on. Right now the content You have completed could be completed with almost any setup. I am pretty sure. Because that's what normally happens with ET games. do it then, i challenge you to complete soloman's treasure missions in hard without varangian units, it would only be fair if you or anyone else got richard and no other iaps to see if you can achieve what i did. even if you don't get richard, the next update will come and they will release cnut and el cid as free premium generals which you have access to that i didn't |
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Post by andrei on Feb 21, 2022 21:30:13 GMT
OK, You are a stubborn one. Look at this situation. Let's assume I am planning to use Edward I as one of my generals. And believe me many players will use many different generals. Because it is part of the fun. Why the heck do I need to follow Your advise to focus varangian guards!? May be I'ld like to put one Swiss Halberdiers into his legion. I need resources for that. There is no information what are the challenges we'll face later on. Right now the content You have completed could be completed with almost any setup. I am pretty sure. Because that's what normally happens with ET games. do it then, i challenge you to complete soloman's treasure missions in hard without varangian units, it would only be fair if you or anyone else got richard and no other iaps to see if you can achieve what i did Yes, yes, that is exactly the same message I have already received several years ago in WC4 thread. The idea: "try to achieve what I did first" Don't be so arrogant  Every single mission will be beaten many different ways as usual by many players with different playstyle. |
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Post by torvestareborn on Feb 21, 2022 21:34:41 GMT
do it then, i challenge you to complete soloman's treasure missions in hard without varangian units, it would only be fair if you or anyone else got richard and no other iaps to see if you can achieve what i did Yes, yes, that is exactly the same message I have already received several years ago in WC4 thread. The idea: "try to achieve what I did first" Don't be so arrogant  Every single mission will be beaten many different ways as usual by many players with different playstyle. i'm not being arrogant, you are sure of something that you have not tested yourself, whereas i have. i looked at other units and i came to a conclusion that they are trash, you haven't. Once you've discovered something and you prove it or back it up with evidence/reasons, then i will listen. Just like i've done, i explained everything in a logical way with reasons + evidence. simply saying 'i'm sure it can be done in other ways' just because it has happened in previous easytech games means nothing. i'm not forcing anyone to follow my guides, i'm giving them info. People should experiment as they like, and if they find something, they should bring it up to help everyone. |
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Post by andrei on Feb 21, 2022 21:41:36 GMT
Yes, yes, that is exactly the same message I have already received several years ago in WC4 thread. The idea: "try to achieve what I did first" Don't be so arrogant Every single mission will be beaten many different ways as usual by many players with different playstyle. i'm not being arrogant, you are sure of something that you have not tested yourself, whereas i have. i looked at other units and i came to a conclusion that they are trash, you haven't. Once you've discovered something and you prove it or back it up with evidence/reasons, then i will listen. Just like i've done, i explained everything in a logical way with reasons + evidence. You missunderstood. I don't need anyone to listen to me. I am not going to convince You. I am here to discuss. It is a forum. I just mentioned that we have Your guide. There is no need to run into every thread and prevent discussions on the units/gens/playstyles You assume are not suitable from Your point of view. That's what meant. But obviously You haven't understood my message. |
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Post by torvestareborn on Feb 21, 2022 21:45:11 GMT
i'm not being arrogant, you are sure of something that you have not tested yourself, whereas i have. i looked at other units and i came to a conclusion that they are trash, you haven't. Once you've discovered something and you prove it or back it up with evidence/reasons, then i will listen. Just like i've done, i explained everything in a logical way with reasons + evidence. You missunderstood. I don't need anyone to listen to me. I am not going to convince You. I am here to discuss. It is a forum. I just mentioned that we have Your guide. There is no need to run into every thread and prevent discussions on the units/gens/playstyles You assume are not suitable from Your point of view. That's what meant. But obviously You haven't understood my message. i'm not preventing discussions, i'm adding to them. I have no bias against a unit lol just because they are not vangarians if that's what you think. At the end of the day they are pixels, i only care about what works and what doesn't. If a unit or general is weak, and someone wanted to discuss that unit or general, i will explain why they are weak, like how i did with elephant archers. |
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Post by andrei on Feb 21, 2022 21:59:56 GMT
You missunderstood. I don't need anyone to listen to me. I am not going to convince You. I am here to discuss. It is a forum. I just mentioned that we have Your guide. There is no need to run into every thread and prevent discussions on the units/gens/playstyles You assume are not suitable from Your point of view. That's what meant. But obviously You haven't understood my message. i'm not preventing discussions, i'm adding to them. I have no bias against a unit lol just because they are not vangarians if that's what you think. At the end of the day they are pixels, i only care about what works and what doesn't. If a unit or general is weak, and someone wanted to discuss that unit or general, i will explain why they are weak, like how i did with elephant archers. Yeah, would be great if You will discuss it this way like with elephant archers, not like You said to the guy: why do You need to rank anything, I made a guide, go check it. As I said I haven't used neither but looking at the info of the units I don't see any significant difference between Teutonic swordsman, Nordic Heavy axeman and varangian guards. Guards have better stat skills (which negated if You use general with Outburst skill), others have better tactical skill sets. And for example that will be interesting to discuss at some point what unit type is better for this or that general with this or that composition/combination. Not just straightaway comparison: ohh, charge chance here is bigger - it is the way to go. Imo it is way too simple approach. |
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Post by torvestareborn on Feb 21, 2022 22:14:58 GMT
i'm not preventing discussions, i'm adding to them. I have no bias against a unit lol just because they are not vangarians if that's what you think. At the end of the day they are pixels, i only care about what works and what doesn't. If a unit or general is weak, and someone wanted to discuss that unit or general, i will explain why they are weak, like how i did with elephant archers. Yeah, would be great if You will discuss it this way like with elephant archers, not like You said to the guy: why do You need to rank anything, I made a guide, go check it. As I said I haven't used neither but looking at the info of the units I don't see any significant difference between Teutonic swordsman, Nordic Heavy axeman and varangian guards. Guards have better stat skills (which negated if You use general with Outburst skill), others have better tactical skill sets. And for example that will be interesting to discuss at some point what unit type is better for this or that general with this or that composition/combination. Not just straightaway comparison: ohh, charge chance here is bigger - it is the way to go. Imo it is way too simple approach. that was different, the guy wanted to rank generals, which made no sense because in my guides where i've talked about basil and harald, i'm compared them to the other generals in their tier and class. There is no point ranking generals when you already know from reading my guides or can easily figure out for yourself who is the best. It's like wanting to rank the worst 10 gold generals in order of best to worst, when you wouldn't even consider buying them because they are the 10 worst. In regards to units, you keep bringing up unit skills but most skills don't affect damage output anyway which is the most important thing. Charge is the single biggest thing that affects damage output. So what if it's simple or obvious, why does the game have to be complicated? none of the other easytech games are complicated. I already explained why mixing units is a bad idea because you want to maximise the effect of countering the correct unit and the general being specialised in 1 thing (either range, cav or infantry.) To make things easier i can give you an example. Before i give the example, you need to understand that unit types in a group are placed in a certain order from first (frontline) to last: counter infantry -> melee infantry -> melee cav -> charge cav -> range infantry -> range cav. This is important because the damage you deal is dependant on the first enemy unit in the group. say there is an enemy group made up of a counter infantry + 2 cavs or 1 cav and a range unit (it's quite common for enemy groups to be mixed). The order in this case is counter inf with the cav and range units at the back. In this case, you can't just use cav to attack the enemy group because you will be hitting counter inf which is cav's weakness. You have to use melee infantry or range units to wipe out the counter inf before a cav can attack the remaining units. If you used a combination of units e.g. 1 counter infantry + 1 cav + 1 range to hit this enemy group rather than 3 range units, you will be dealing less damage. This is why mixing units is bad. The only case when you should mix units is when the general has a unique item equipped that gives +30% damage to a specific unit AND other non-specific units in that group but you would need atleast 1 of the specific unit to activate this legion effect for all units. |
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Post by andrei on Feb 21, 2022 22:22:46 GMT
torvestareborn, I don't see any point to discuss it with You right now. As I simply not ready to do it. But I want to discuss it and many other things at some point. Not only to receive links to Your guide in every thread. Can You understand that?
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Post by torvestareborn on Feb 21, 2022 22:28:15 GMT
torvestareborn , I don't see any point to discuss it with You right now. As I simply not ready to do it. But I want to discuss it and many other things at some point. Not only to receive links to Your guide in every thread. Can You understand that? ye thats fine, but not everyone wants to test things for themselves or experiment, and my links is just giving info, you don't need to click on it if you've already read what i wrote in that thread, it's for others who haven't |
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Post by blueberry on Feb 21, 2022 22:40:50 GMT
torvestareborn, I think andrei just means that other people might well have seen your threads and simply decided to do their own guide because they disagree with yours, or because they want to focus on something in particular, or because they just feel like doing it. If someone has a question it's perfectly fine to give your insight, or to post a link to your guides, but you shouldn't impose them by dissuading people from ranking generals or whatever they want to do.
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Post by torvestareborn on Feb 21, 2022 23:26:25 GMT
torvestareborn , I think andrei just means that other people might well have seen your threads and simply decided to do their own guide because they disagree with yours, or because they want to focus on something in particular, or because they just feel like doing it. If someone has a question it's perfectly fine to give your insight, or to post a link to your guides, but you shouldn't impose them by dissuading people from ranking generals or whatever they want to do. i would love it for other people to trial other strats just to find out that it is not optimal so they can prove me right. The earlier they can do this, the better we can all agree on what is optimal and people will have access to this at an early stage in the game. |
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Post by stoic on Feb 22, 2022 4:24:35 GMT
Let me offer you some constructive criticism too  To "figure out" that Elephant shooters, for example are a bad/inferior unit, you have to test this unit fully upgraded against different opponents and unit types using different generals and compare these results with other fully upgraded units. With all due respect I seriously doubt that such unbiased tests were completed already and their results published. i understand what you are saying, you want to compare units at their max or near max potential, but theres 1 thing we can all agree on, that upgrading units is not going to change their skills. The only thing that changes is the first skill which is that units they deal extra damage against (e.g. counter inf deals more damage against cav - their counter), the % increase in damage goes up at lvl 6 and again at lvl 12. If you look at elephant shooters, they have 1 skill that reduces moral of enemy by 15 if they charge, but elephant units can not charge unless they are mixed with a charge cav or varangian that has built in charge, either way it's not ideal to mix units because you want to have all the same units in a group to counter the correct enemy units, and generals should be specialised e.g. in cav, range or infantry, it's not good to be a jack of all trades. The other skill that elephants has is it ignores 5% of the defence of the enemy - it's pretty obvious what this means and it doesn't make a big difference even when enemy units are a high level and have higher defence. Their third skill is called shoot - just means that they can hit a non-range unit and not get hit back, and when they do hit, rather than only dealing damage to the first unit, the total damage is spread evenly between all enemy units in a group (doesn't affect total damage). So as you can see, once you play the game a bit more, you will understand the unit skills better and realise that they make little difference, charge is the difference maker. Charge in simple terms is a 100-200% damage increase because in charge, you are hitting the 2nd and 3rd enemy unit in a group, not just the first unit which is what would happen in a normal hit. Because you are hitting 2 extra units, that's why the damage increase is 100-200%. The reason why it's a range rather than a fixed 200% increase is because the 2nd and 3rd enemy unit takes slightly less damage than the 1st unit in the group. There are several presumptions in your explanation that you consider to be absolutely true and you base your whole reasoning on it: 1. Charge is a key to all doors. 2. It is a bad/unadvisable thing to combine different unit types in one legion. So, if these presumptions are false or maybe not entirely true, the whole construction built on it will fall apart. I am not ready yet to challenge these presumptions, but as andrei I have my reasonable doubts that ET would put so much efforts into creating possibility to combine different unit types and, at the same time, will make this possibility completely useless. Neither can I believe that a single skill can solve all possible problems. Yet, as I said, I simply don't have enough data to challenge or to support your assumptions. It is in my plans anyway to hire someone like Timur and to put him on "Elephant shooters" unit I can't say it's the best way to spend medals, but (it is another point I agree with andrei on) I like mounted archers and therefore I am planning to use at least some of them. And, truth be told, I don't believe it is a critical blunder. ET games have some flaws, but simplicity or simplistic approach are not one of them. |
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Post by mrvije on Feb 23, 2022 16:08:02 GMT
This thread is very engaging I like it.
But I want to include some of my personal experiences.. don’t mean to make a fuss but I just wanted to share with you the things that might help..
The current game is not yet complete so we don’t need to assume that what we achieved now will be compelling towards the end. I think it will be harder and harder, since it will be the end game.. (My personal thought).
I am free two play but I was able to atleast finished all the normal content and currently at the hard content but atleast at the rise of byzantium lvl 6. I am taking my time and not speed running everything because I think the update is still miles away to be released.
I have Basil II, Alfred the great, Roland, Belisarius (with him being my go to guys actually, always using him at tavern every conquest or campaign I played with.) and what I realized is even if it is a silver or bronze general. They have a place in your team. Well for bragging rights I think having premium and gold generals are great but silver and bronze generals can somewhat make a case (as long as your using them right).. I am saying this because this is my experience. My ivar can deal atleast 250-400 when using rage skills. I mean it is not the best output but I can say it is satisfying to see that even a general like ivar with just three skillset can perform with that (again using viking raider lvl 3, sorry I am not a grind hard person). In addition to that Gytha can also make a case as a decent Consul (compare it to justinian, Gytha is lackluster in damage department but can make a case as a “not wasting a medal category” i think) she helps me in most of my conquest modes.
So I think even if we have the privilege to choice the best at the moment the game is not yet complete. There will be a lot of changes in the future. So lets just enjoy the game and provide some insightful information in the forum so people will be able to make judgments about what they like to do in their gameplay. Just saying hehe
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