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Post by andrei on May 18, 2023 7:35:48 GMT
I personallyΒ prefer having my Richard wipe out three units per round. If not three, then two and a half. If he can't do that, then myΒ Timur definitely can't do that. Richard can only attack 3 times without moving even with Rhino/Orban/Constantine. You mean Your Timur can't deal same damage with 5 attacks? In this case You probably compare properly equipped Richard (gear, gems) with poor beggar Timur. |
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Post by π΅πππ ππ π¬ππ on May 18, 2023 7:52:17 GMT
Same can be said for both other people's charge cav gens and also archer gens. It's just personal preference. Out of curiosity, how on earth did you get your Timur to have 5 attacks? Assuming you're not using support gens... Even with Orban's cannon, he can't do that. He's equipped with a mobility gen, too. (If it makes any difference.)
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Post by andrei on May 18, 2023 8:51:56 GMT
Same can be said for both other people's charge cav gens and also archer gens. It's just personal preference. Out of curiosity, how on earth did you get your Timur to have 5 attacks? Assuming you're not using support gens... Even with Orban's cannon, he can't do that. He's equipped with a mobility gen, too. (If it makes any difference.) Rhino, mobility gem Sometimes tech research can provide additional attack for archer gens. It's because mobilize+repeated fire is such a strong combo. And yes, support desperate wager for instance can provide the amount of damage Richard could only dream about. |
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Post by hrabrimalitoster on May 18, 2023 11:47:29 GMT
hrabrimalitoster You didn't use war drums? So how come your charlemagne has and sustained max morale up until the very end? IIRC charlemagne and the units you used (assuming they are maxed talent), don't haveLiterally from 3 turns when I take the first city he has max morale. any morale buff skills. Something doesn't add up. Literally from 3 turns when I take the first city he has max morale.   |
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Post by verily on May 18, 2023 12:43:58 GMT
mehmed, buff all you can until jan ziska debuffs them all. like when arthur's conscription is active and then you use the winner(active killer) skill. that skill is gone. You are using this reason quite often in different threads. Where exactly are You fighting against all these Ziskas? Never faced this general  ? i only say ziska now. i fight eternal king in expedition. that conscript skill is so good. need to defeat (the other gen) one 2 times to low health. as you can only debuff one(and i choose arthur himself). |
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Post by verily on May 18, 2023 13:13:25 GMT
You have a point. But archers are known for their counterattack. Cavalry is on the offensive. We can see it however. That's just my take. But yeah, I guess my method isn't exactly perfect either. I'm willing to concede archers are better for defense and general counterattack. But they can't wipe out generals fast enough to avoid their attack. Referring to the elite units. My way of fighting may differ from yours, so we prefer different things. I'm entirely brute force, not sure about you. I'm wrong in saying that archers are glass cannons for everyone, but they are for me. yes. archers good for counterattack. i once attack a lone el cid in territory. i let the ai do the attacking. it surprise me that my units got annihilated. i don't know if that player in territory still exist but having 4 archer generals 50k power all yellow lv4 gem and my 170k units got annihilated. im wary of that setup. |
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Post by verily on May 18, 2023 13:15:37 GMT
hrabrimalitoster You didn't use war drums? So how come your charlemagne has and sustained max morale up until the very end? IIRC charlemagne and the units you used (assuming they are maxed talent), don't haveLiterally from 3 turns when I take the first city he has max morale. any morale buff skills. Something doesn't add up.Β Literally from 3 turns when I take the first city he has max morale. didn't use war drums? ah... of course that upgraded heal skill of knights of st john/ knights hospitalier |
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Post by hrabrimalitoster on May 18, 2023 13:21:58 GMT
Range Cav are the best units when you are fighting against lower level opponents, if the opponent is of the same level or power their effectiveness drops sharply which is best seen in the Treasure missions, where my Timur and Subutai were losing 90% of their health from a single attack, and if they are attacked by a Melee Cav die from the first attack. Currently, according to me, the best Generals are Inf generals, who have Def Inf in their Legions + 2 Melee Inf, such as Belisarius, Robert the Bruce, SuDingfang, Ziska... Cnut is also excellent but has a flaw that is his unique unit much weaker than the others and is the first in the legion. Don't forget that currently all the strongest Melee and Def Inf have 5 skill, which is a big advantage compared to most Range Cav including IBC and MC. Despite all this, the Range Cav are still the best for the Conquest Challenge.
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Post by hrabrimalitoster on May 18, 2023 13:23:12 GMT
didn't use war drums? ah... of course that upgraded heal skill of knights of st john/ knights hospitalier Plus when he has high morale, Hengdao 5 skill does his job perfectly. |
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Post by kingbutawl on May 18, 2023 13:29:09 GMT
Charles now is the based base of the based! |
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Post by wyxelix on May 18, 2023 13:37:41 GMT
Same can be said for both other people's charge cav gens and also archer gens. It's just personal preference. Out of curiosity, how on earth did you get your Timur to have 5 attacks? Assuming you're not using support gens... Even with Orban's cannon, he can't do that. He's equipped with a mobility gen, too. (If it makes any difference.) Rhino, mobility gem Sometimes tech research can provide additional attack for archer gens. It's because mobilize+repeated fire is such a strong combo. And yes, support desperate wager for instance can provide the amount of damage Richard could only dream about. Theoretically speaking he still wouldn't be able to do 5 attacks unless you use Desperate Wager(which I believe is a rather outdated ability), Obedience(which is far more efficient than desperate wager although the same argument could also be used for any units), or mongolian raider's talent lvl 5 (which is an entirely different argument). Assuming you use rapid march on timur giving an initial mobility of 11(mr mobility) + 1(whipping) +1 (policy), we would get the overall 13 units of mobility. Additionally, 4 units/points of mobility will be consumed in each attack because 6(initial consumed amount of mobility) - 1(mobilize) - 1(Rhino) is 4 but 1 mobility would be given if the concluding mobility after the attack isn't 0/more than 0. In a standstill He would only be able to hit 4 times due to this equation: Let x = unit/points mobility whereas, xβ= initial mobility, xβ= mobility after the attack; y = unit/points consumed in attack; Z= recovered mobility due to repeated fire. xβ- y = xβ whereas, if xβ=0, then x=0(no more attack/mobility; indicating last attack) ; if xβ>0 / xβ β 0, then xβ + Z = x(resetting the formula) or xβ - y = xβ + Z =x. Lastly, x = xβ if the formula is reset(If x>0). Plug xβ=13, y=4 Z=1 1st attack 13 - 4 = 9 + 1 = 10 2nd attack 10 - 4 = 6 + 1 = 7 3rd attack 7 - 4 = 3 + 1 = 4 4th attack 4 - 4 = 0 Hence he could only do 4 attacks even after fulfilling the condition: 1.)Using the Rhinoceros War Gear 2.)Rapid March Gem Combination 3.) 1 blue(if the user has ebp)/purple/yellow equipment(for the whipping gem) 4.) Whipping gem 5.) Ranged unit Tactics(Policy) 6.) Mongolian Raider (11mob and mobilize) 7.) Repeated Fire Unit(Ravenna/Mamluk) Let me know if theres any suggestion(s) or error(s) in the formula and/or equation. |
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Post by andrei on May 18, 2023 14:31:47 GMT
Rhino, mobility gem Sometimes tech research can provide additional attack for archer gens. It's because mobilize+repeated fire is such a strong combo. And yes, support desperate wager for instance can provide the amount of damage Richard could only dream about. Theoretically speaking he still wouldn't be able to do 5 attacks unless you use Desperate Wager(which I believe is a rather outdated ability), Obedience(which is far more efficient than desperate wager although the same argument could also be used for any units), or mongolian raider's talent lvl 5 (which is an entirely different argument). Assuming you use rapid march on timur giving an initial mobility of 11(mr mobility) + 1(whipping) +1 (policy), we would get the overall 13 units of mobility. Additionally, 4 units/points of mobility will be consumed in each attack because 6(initial consumed amount of mobility) - 1(mobilize) - 1(Rhino) is 4 but 1 mobility would be given if the concluding mobility after the attack isn't 0/more than 0. In a standstill He would only be able to hit 4 times due to this equation: Let x = unit/points mobility whereas, xβ= initial mobility, xβ= mobility after the attack; y = unit/points consumed in attack; Z= recovered mobility due to repeated fire. xβ- y = xβ whereas, if xβ=0, then x=0(no more attack/mobility; indicating last attack) ; if xβ>0 / xβ β 0, then xβ + Z = x(resetting the formula) or xβ - y = xβ + Z =x. Lastly, x = xβ if the formula is reset(If x>0). Plug xβ=13, y=4 Z=1 1st attack 13 - 4 = 9 + 1 = 10 2nd attack 10 - 4 = 6 + 1 = 7 3rd attack 7 - 4 = 3 + 1 = 4 4th attack 4 - 4 = 0 Hence he could only do 4 attacks even after fulfilling the condition: 1.)Using the Rhinoceros War Gear 2.)Rapid March Gem Combination 3.) 1 blue(if the user has ebp)/purple/yellow equipment(for the whipping gem) 4.) Whipping gem 5.) Ranged unit Tactics(Policy) 6.) Mongolian Raider (11mob and mobilize) 7.) Repeated Fire Unit(Ravenna/Mamluk) Let me know if theres any suggestion(s) or error(s) in the formula and/or equation. Yeah, I am letting You know: no errors, 4 attacks (not 5) and policy is not necessary. As I said earlier policy could give additional attack to archer gen. I wasn't speaking about Timur speaking about policy. But anyway good math exercise! Just to clarify my Timur without Rapid march gem with 11 mobility and rhino lvl3 can attack 4 times. 11-3=8 8-3=5 5-3=2 attack Doesn't matter that repeated fire condition as 2 mobility is left. So 4 attacks. And I have no idea how Obedience recovering 1 mobility per turn can compete with -1 attack cost mobility With desperate wager math would be: 11-2=9 9-2=7 7-2=5 5-2=3 3-3 repeated fire conditions matters here. 5 attacks. With other archers (rapid march) desperate wager could give more. |
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Post by nexttimebro on May 18, 2023 18:20:38 GMT
Honestly, 5 attacks is possible for every range general now if at least one of its enemies is a range unit.
Scenario 1:
Setup: MA + MR + any other unit
10 mobility in the beginning, rhinoceros lvl 3 as gear.
1st attack: 10 -4 (attack itself) + 4(MR dodge+ MA dodge) + 1(repeated fire) = 11
2nd attack: 11 - 4 + 1 = 8
3rd attack: 8 - 4 + 1 = 5
4th attack: 5 - 4 + 1 = 2
5th attack: 2 -4.
Scenario 2:
Setup: MA + MR + Dragoons
11 mobility in the beginning, any other gear
1st attack: 11 - 2(first attack with Dragoons) + 4(MR dodge+ MA dodge) + 1(repeated fire) = 14
2nd attack: 14 - 5 + 1 = 10
3rd attack: 10 - 5 + 1 = 6
4th attack: 6 - 5 + 1 = 2
5th attack: 2 - 5
Scenario 3:
Setup: IBC + MR + Dragoons
11 mobility in the beginning, rhinoceros lvl 3 as gear.
1st attack: 11 - 1 (first attack with dragoons) + 4(MR dodge+ IBC dodge) + = 14
2nd attack: 14 - 4 = 10
3rd attack: 10 - 4 = 6
4th attack: 6 - 4 = 2
5th attack: 2 - 4
I understand, that double dodge is not guaranteed during the first attack, but with 80-85% unit dodge itβll be still activated during 2nd or 3rd attack with very high chance.
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Post by wyxelix on May 18, 2023 23:26:38 GMT
Theoretically speaking he still wouldn't be able to do 5 attacks unless you use Desperate Wager(which I believe is a rather outdated ability), Obedience(which is far more efficient than desperate wager although the same argument could also be used for any units), or mongolian raider's talent lvl 5 (which is an entirely different argument). Assuming you use rapid march on timur giving an initial mobility of 11(mr mobility) + 1(whipping) +1 (policy), we would get the overall 13 units of mobility. Additionally, 4 units/points of mobility will be consumed in each attack because 6(initial consumed amount of mobility) - 1(mobilize) - 1(Rhino) is 4 but 1 mobility would be given if the concluding mobility after the attack isn't 0/more than 0. In a standstill He would only be able to hit 4 times due to this equation: Let x = unit/points mobility whereas, xβ= initial mobility, xβ= mobility after the attack; y = unit/points consumed in attack; Z= recovered mobility due to repeated fire. xβ- y = xβ whereas, if xβ=0, then x=0(no more attack/mobility; indicating last attack) ; if xβ>0 / xβ β 0, then xβ + Z = x(resetting the formula) or xβ - y = xβ + Z =x. Lastly, x = xβ if the formula is reset(If x>0). Plug xβ=13, y=4 Z=1 1st attack 13 - 4 = 9 + 1 = 10 2nd attack 10 - 4 = 6 + 1 = 7 3rd attack 7 - 4 = 3 + 1 = 4 4th attack 4 - 4 = 0 Hence he could only do 4 attacks even after fulfilling the condition: 1.)Using the Rhinoceros War Gear 2.)Rapid March Gem Combination 3.) 1 blue(if the user has ebp)/purple/yellow equipment(for the whipping gem) 4.) Whipping gem 5.) Ranged unit Tactics(Policy) 6.) Mongolian Raider (11mob and mobilize) 7.) Repeated Fire Unit(Ravenna/Mamluk) Let me know if theres any suggestion(s) or error(s) in the formula and/or equation. Yeah, I am letting You know: no errors, 4 attacks (not 5) and policy is not necessary. As I said earlier policy could give additional attack to archer gen. I wasn't speaking about Timur speaking about policy. But anyway good math exercise! Just to clarify my Timur without Rapid march gem with 11 mobility and rhino lvl3 can attack 4 times. 11-3=8 8-3=5 5-3=2 attack Doesn't matter that repeated fire condition as 2 mobility is left. So 4 attacks. And I have no idea how Obedience recovering 1 mobility per turn can compete with -1 attack cost mobility With desperate wager math would be: 11-2=9 9-2=7 7-2=5 5-2=3 3-3 repeated fire conditions matters here. 5 attacks. With other archers (rapid march) desperate wager could give more. I believe you said something about tech research that can provide an additional attack for archer gens which, in turn, made me assume you're talking about policy about the 1 extra movement. That aside, In a practical standpoint, Obedience(especially lvl 2) is (arguably) better than Desperate wager(lvl3/4) for reasons such as: 1.)Obedience(lvl 2) lasts 3 turns, Desperate wager lasts only to the current turn only but with 2/3 turns of cooldown to compensate for it. The amount of turns skill is active is a dealbreaker for desperate wager, meanwhile 5 turns of cd on obedience wouldn't matter at all as calmness generals exists which negates that con. 2.) Obedience can unconditionally(regardless of the unit) make a unit have 3 attacks (4 if 13 mobility which mostly happens on JB/BAG + Whipping/lvl3 orban's/constantine's) on a standstill, and 2 after moving(3 even after moving if we consider events/situations like: (1) any cav moving to a plain tile in campaign; (2) recruitable/normal inf w/ whipping/lvl 3 orban's/constantine's moving to a plain tile; and (3) if the campaign has a melee/range inf unit tactics policy). Desperate wager, on the other hand, is very situational as it doesnt do much by itself(best it could do under normal circumstances is when u apply it to yourself(especially when you're inf with 9 mob) in conquest > attack the city > capture it, which is just unappealing especially to the later stages/challenge conquest) and only shines when your unit formation have mobilize repeated fire and/or rhino and even after meeting those 3 conditions you can still only do 3 attacks on a standstill(10-4=6+1=7 | 7-4=3+1=4 | 4-4=0) unless you add more condition like policy, rapid march, and/or whipping gem. There's more to it than these but i believe these are sufficient enough (at least for now)to prove than Obedience is better than Desperate wager. |
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Post by andrei on May 19, 2023 6:05:07 GMT
Yeah, I am letting You know: no errors, 4 attacks (not 5) and policy is not necessary. As I said earlier policy could give additional attack to archer gen. I wasn't speaking about Timur speaking about policy. But anyway good math exercise! Just to clarify my Timur without Rapid march gem with 11 mobility and rhino lvl3 can attack 4 times. 11-3=8 8-3=5 5-3=2 attack Doesn't matter that repeated fire condition as 2 mobility is left. So 4 attacks. And I have no idea how Obedience recovering 1 mobility per turn can compete with -1 attack cost mobility With desperate wager math would be: 11-2=9 9-2=7 7-2=5 5-2=3 3-3 repeated fire conditions matters here. 5 attacks. With other archers (rapid march) desperate wager could give more. I believe you said something about tech research that can provide an additional attack for archer gens which, in turn, made me assume you're talking about policy about the 1 extra movement. That aside, In a practical standpoint, Obedience(especially lvl 2) is (arguably) better than Desperate wager(lvl3/4) for reasons such as: 1.)Obedience(lvl 2) lasts 3 turns, Desperate wager lasts only to the current turn only but with 2/3 turns of cooldown to compensate for it. The amount of turns skill is active is a dealbreaker for desperate wager, meanwhile 5 turns of cd on obedience wouldn't matter at all as calmness generals exists which negates that con. 2.) Obedience can unconditionally(regardless of the unit) make a unit have 3 attacks (4 if 13 mobility which mostly happens on JB/BAG + Whipping/lvl3 orban's/constantine's) on a standstill, and 2 after moving(3 even after moving if we consider events/situations like: (1) any cav moving to a plain tile in campaign; (2) recruitable/normal inf w/ whipping/lvl 3 orban's/constantine's moving to a plain tile; and (3) if the campaign has a melee/range inf unit tactics policy). Desperate wager, on the other hand, is very situational as it doesnt do much by itself(best it could do under normal circumstances is when u apply it to yourself(especially when you're inf with 9 mob) in conquest > attack the city > capture it, which is just unappealing especially to the later stages/challenge conquest) and only shines when your unit formation have mobilize repeated fire and/or rhino and even after meeting those 3 conditions you can still only do 3 attacks on a standstill(10-4=6+1=7 | 7-4=3+1=4 | 4-4=0) unless you add more condition like policy, rapid march, and/or whipping gem. There's more to it than these but i believe these are sufficient enough (at least for now)to prove than Obedience is better than Desperate wager. I have no idea what is wrong with You math when desperate wager is involved. Mobilize+repeated fire+rhino+wager makes attack cost just 2 points (except for the cases when repeated fire is not applied anymore when all mobility points are consumed) So it is onky 2 points. How on earth You can make only 3 attack with 2 points mobility? Cost of attack of my Lancelot with Bond is 1. 1 point, just imagine. And please don't say it is difficult to meat all these as You call "conditions". It is not "conditions" it is just proper setup. Prepare Your legion, add gear and You are good to attack multiple times. What are the obstacles? Why conditions? |
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