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Post by Der Kaiserreich on Aug 9, 2016 3:24:03 GMT
Sorry but you're making me really mad with your insult. I never read the novel and any Chinese knows that Zhuge Liang got 10000 arrows in three days thanks to his weather forecast, wrecked Caocao's army at the battle of Red Cliff! If you want evidence go ask any Chinese historian, and please do not think he was "just" an admin under Liu Bei! I am Chinese, thank you very much. The 草船借箭 in IRL was Sun Quan's idea . Do you read 三国志? The Wu army wreaked havoc in Cao Cao's camp, thank you very much. I don't know wht's IRL, never read 三国志, I thought Zhuge Liang thought of the idea, Sun Quan or whoever lent the boats, and yeah I think it was Wu. |
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Post by Quintus Fabius on Aug 9, 2016 3:25:49 GMT
Der Kaiserreich , you have not responded to my question. Answer why you believe the Zhuge Liang fan Luo Guanzhong was right and the official history was wrong. And no, Chinese history is pretty honest, unlike certain European histories... Yi Sun Sin , wasn't he a member of the NZ army who lost Crete? I honestly don't see how you can deny that he was a great strategist. No, don't get me wrong, he had a great long-term plan. But tactics and generals? That's just myth. IRL, he was possibly the best logistics officer, a great inventor (Zhuge Nu/Chu Ko Nu, anyone?), and a good diplomat. What he was not great was being a general. That was added by Luo Guanzhong and folktales. |
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Post by Mountbatten on Aug 9, 2016 3:26:46 GMT
I honestly don't see how you can deny that he was a great strategist. No, don't get me wrong, he had a great long-term plan. But tactics and generals? That's just myth. IRL, he was possibly the best logistics officer, a great inventor (Zhuge Nu/Chu Ko Nu, anyone?), and a good diplomat. What he was not great was being a general. That was added by Luo Guanzhong and folktales. I didn't say he was good at fighting things. He's just my favorite. None of the strategists back then fought anybody |
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Post by Quintus Fabius on Aug 9, 2016 3:27:03 GMT
I am Chinese, thank you very much. The 草船借箭 in IRL was Sun Quan's idea . Do you read 三国志? The Wu army wreaked havoc in Cao Cao's camp, thank you very much. I don't know wht's IRL, never read 三国志, I thought Zhuge Liang thought of the idea, Sun Quan or whoever lent the boats, and yeah I think it was Wu. Well, he was everything but a tactics guy and general. Sun quan sailed into the harbour of Cao Cao, and depending on who you believe, Cao Cao either fired many arrows at him, or didn't dare. |
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Post by Quintus Fabius on Aug 9, 2016 3:27:48 GMT
No, don't get me wrong, he had a great long-term plan. But tactics and generals? That's just myth. IRL, he was possibly the best logistics officer, a great inventor (Zhuge Nu/Chu Ko Nu, anyone?), and a good diplomat. What he was not great was being a general. That was added by Luo Guanzhong and folktales. I didn't say he was good at fighting things. He's just my favorite. None of the strategists back then fought anybody Long-term Strategist, like PM. the ones you were referring to are tactics guys. |
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Post by Quintus Fabius on Aug 9, 2016 3:29:13 GMT
I am Chinese, thank you very much. The 草船借箭 in IRL was Sun Quan's idea . Do you read 三国志? The Wu army wreaked havoc in Cao Cao's camp, thank you very much. Zhuge Liang was the best strategist in that era. He just didn't have the muscle on his side to face the stronger kingdom of Wei. Zhao Yun was old by the time Wuzhang came around. The three brother were all passed. And yet if Zhuge didn't die before finishing the battle, Shu would have won. He only led because he was PM and basically regent. Jiang Wei was a better gen and tactics strat. Zhuge Liang was long-term strat, like planning where to invade and who to ally. |
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Post by Der Kaiserreich on Aug 9, 2016 3:30:13 GMT
Der Kaiserreich, you have not responded to my question. Answer why you believe the Zhuge Liang fan Luo Guanzhong was right and the official history was wrong. And no, Chinese history is pretty honest, unlike certain European histories... Yi Sun Sin, wasn't he a member of the NZ army who lost Crete? I never said I believed him, unless those who taught me did. |
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Post by Der Kaiserreich on Aug 9, 2016 3:34:06 GMT
Zhuge Liang was the best strategist in that era. He just didn't have the muscle on his side to face the stronger kingdom of Wei. Zhao Yun was old by the time Wuzhang came around. The three brother were all passed. And yet if Zhuge didn't die before finishing the battle, Shu would have won. He only led because he was PM and basically regent. Jiang Wei was a better gen and tactics strat. Zhuge Liang was long-term strat, like planning where to invade and who to ally. I got my sources from trusted adults and textbooks. Please show me some better evidence than that and I admit I was wrong. Btw Wikipedia is not 100% reliable. |
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Post by Quintus Fabius on Aug 9, 2016 3:34:28 GMT
Der Kaiserreich , you have not responded to my question. Answer why you believe the Zhuge Liang fan Luo Guanzhong was right and the official history was wrong. And no, Chinese history is pretty honest, unlike certain European histories... Yi Sun Sin , wasn't he a member of the NZ army who lost Crete? I never said I believed him, unless those who taught me did. 。。。Look, most people talk about Ro3K is because it's a novel, like Hunger Games. It's popular, and it's a novel. It also introduces people to military strat, which was why the Manchu read it when they invaded Ming. But it's not actual history, it's like a historical novel. Sanguozhi is a more reliable source. And these things are little known things that honestly, most Chinese don't know. It's just that it bugs me when people mention Zhuge Liang like he was some kind of great gen, when he was actually everything but a great gen. |
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Post by Quintus Fabius on Aug 9, 2016 3:36:01 GMT
He only led because he was PM and basically regent. Jiang Wei was a better gen and tactics strat. Zhuge Liang was long-term strat, like planning where to invade and who to ally. I got my sources from trusted adults and textbooks. Please show me some better evidence than that and I admit I was wrong. Btw Wikipedia is not 100% reliable. Better evidence? 三国志， the official history, made by a guy half a generation away from the Three Kingdoms, so had a lot of Primary sources to work with. |
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Post by Mountbatten on Aug 9, 2016 3:36:04 GMT
Zhuge Liang was the best strategist in that era. He just didn't have the muscle on his side to face the stronger kingdom of Wei. Zhao Yun was old by the time Wuzhang came around. The three brother were all passed. And yet if Zhuge didn't die before finishing the battle, Shu would have won. He only led because he was PM and basically regent. Jiang Wei was a better gen and tactics strat. Zhuge Liang was long-term strat, like planning where to invade and who to ally. Jiang Wei wasnt good enough to lead. Liu Bei's son was a paper ruler and did nothing. That duo led to the collapse of Shu. Which is sad because it's my favorite kingdom  |
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Post by Der Kaiserreich on Aug 9, 2016 3:38:06 GMT
I never said I believed him, unless those who taught me did. 。。。Look, most people talk about Ro3K is because it's a novel, like Hunger Games. It's popular, and it's a novel. It also introduces people to military strat, which was why the Manchu read it when they invaded Ming. But it's not actual history, it's like a historical novel. Sanguozhi is a more reliable source. And these things are little known things that honestly, most Chinese don't know. It's just that it bugs me when people mention Zhuge Liang like he was some kind of great gen, when he was actually everything but a great gen. Strategist* Nobody calls him a general. And maybe I'll check that out. |
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Post by Quintus Fabius on Aug 9, 2016 3:41:31 GMT
。。。Look, most people talk about Ro3K is because it's a novel, like Hunger Games. It's popular, and it's a novel. It also introduces people to military strat, which was why the Manchu read it when they invaded Ming. But it's not actual history, it's like a historical novel. Sanguozhi is a more reliable source. And these things are little known things that honestly, most Chinese don't know. It's just that it bugs me when people mention Zhuge Liang like he was some kind of great gen, when he was actually everything but a great gen. Strategist* Nobody calls him a general. And maybe I'll check that out. The Scholar and the State: Fiction as Political Discourse in Late Imperial China can also help you out with most of the other fake stories. See if you can find an ebook. |
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Post by Quintus Fabius on Aug 9, 2016 3:44:47 GMT
He only led because he was PM and basically regent. Jiang Wei was a better gen and tactics strat. Zhuge Liang was long-term strat, like planning where to invade and who to ally. Jiang Wei wasnt good enough to lead. Liu Bei's son was a paper ruler and did nothing. That duo led to the collapse of Shu. Which is sad because it's my favorite kingdom Liu Shan was actually not an idiot! Also a myth to make Zhuge more of a knight in shining armour, he was actually OK... but most people were better than him. Like father, like son. Also, Jiang wei was better gen than Admin. Jiang Wan was better for that. |
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Post by Der Kaiserreich on Aug 9, 2016 3:48:17 GMT
We should make a new thread: History Area I: History Awakens?
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