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Post by Quintus Fabius on Mar 7, 2017 14:03:33 GMT
A belated reply:
1. Read Mein Kampf, especially the chapter titled Nation and Race. The Shadow Chancellor wrote it not to be used as propaganda, but to be literally his biography.
2. You might say: Molotov-Ribbentrop! Hilter and Stalin were allies until Barbarossa and they probably went on vacations to Odessa together!
NO.
Hilter was desperate for resources, and the only way he could get it at the start of the war without triggering a D-DAY 4 years earlier than IRL was to get it from a friendly power. Stalin wanted an anti-fascist pact with the UK and France, but neither really trusted the USSR and refused his offers of an alliance. He also was currently in the process of getting his army massacred by the Finns in the Winter War, and didn't want the rest of his army massacred as well while he was focusing on Finland. Therefore, both had common cause to make an NAP of convenience. Both still hated each other, but there were other things than each other to focus on for the two dictators.
And yes, I know that they had combined parades and whatnot in Poland or somewhere, but so did Napoleon and Russia. And I refuse to believe Napoleon was BFFs forever with Alexander I in thee Napoleonic Wars.
/endrant
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Post by Kal Wardin on Mar 7, 2017 14:04:04 GMT
As a German I'm sensitive to this and won't get too far in If you want to take the propaganda away and let history be history then fine. Communists were sent to concentration camps. That is history. In theory and practically one part yes, although genocide is a larger therm than just jews, correct definition of this is large scale planned destruction of nation, political, ethnic or religic group, and first recognized type of this kind of actions is ancient Rome when Christians were killed for their beliefs. |
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Post by Kal Wardin on Mar 7, 2017 14:08:52 GMT
A belated reply: 1. Read Mein Kampf, especially the chapter titled Nation and Race. The Shadow Chancellor wrote it not to be used as propaganda, but to be literally his biography. 2. You might say: Molotov-Ribbentrop! Hilter and Stalin were allies until Barbarossa and they probably went on vacations to Odessa together! NO. Hilter was desperate for resources, and the only way he could get it at the start of the war without triggering a D-DAY 4 years earlier than IRL was to get it from a friendly power. Stalin wanted an anti-fascist pact with the UK and France, but neither really trusted the USSR and refused his offers of an alliance. He also was currently in the process of getting his army massacred by the Finns in the Winter War, and didn't want the rest of his army massacred as well while he was focusing on Finland. Therefore, both had common cause to make an NAP of convenience. Both still hated each other, but there were other things than each other to focus on for the two dictators. And yes, I know that they had combined parades and whatnot in Poland or somewhere, but so did Napoleon and Russia. And I refuse to believe Napoleon was BFFs forever with Alexander I in thee Napoleonic Wars. /endrant Wrong France and UK and the nation alliance wanted Stalin in anti fascist pact, but he instead signed pact with hitler and went in Poland(actually see movie I posted before 39:00and further), that's tolerable from nation alliance point of view, but when Stalin went to Finland then nation alliance banned him with those 3 already banned. Actually Stalin and Hitler celebrated victory over Poland together. |
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Post by Jean-Luc Picard on Mar 7, 2017 14:14:26 GMT
A belated reply: 1. Read Mein Kampf, especially the chapter titled Nation and Race. The Shadow Chancellor wrote it not to be used as propaganda, but to be literally his biography. 2. You might say: Molotov-Ribbentrop! Hilter and Stalin were allies until Barbarossa and they probably went on vacations to Odessa together! NO. Hilter was desperate for resources, and the only way he could get it at the start of the war without triggering a D-DAY 4 years earlier than IRL was to get it from a friendly power. Stalin wanted an anti-fascist pact with the UK and France, but neither really trusted the USSR and refused his offers of an alliance. He also was currently in the process of getting his army massacred by the Finns in the Winter War, and didn't want the rest of his army massacred as well while he was focusing on Finland. Therefore, both had common cause to make an NAP of convenience. Both still hated each other, but there were other things than each other to focus on for the two dictators. And yes, I know that they had combined parades and whatnot in Poland or somewhere, but so did Napoleon and Russia. And I refuse to believe Napoleon was BFFs forever with Alexander I in thee Napoleonic Wars. /endrant Wrong France and UK and the nation alliance wanted Stalin in anti fascist pact, but he instead signed pact with hitler and went in Poland(actually see movie I posted before 39:00and further), that's tolerable from nation alliance point of view, but when Stalin went to Finland then nation alliance banned him with those 3 already banned. Actually Stalin and Hitler celebrated victory over Poland together. They celebrated the victory in their alliance which both knew was temporary, and which Stalin entered after Western European powers rejected him. Please, please get facts from a source whose agenda isn't demonizing Russia and Germany. |
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Post by Kal Wardin on Mar 7, 2017 14:18:55 GMT
Wrong France and UK and the nation alliance wanted Stalin in anti fascist pact, but he instead signed pact with hitler and went in Poland(actually see movie I posted before 39:00and further), that's tolerable from nation alliance point of view, but when Stalin went to Finland then nation alliance banned him with those 3 already banned. Actually Stalin and Hitler celebrated victory over Poland together. They celebrated the victory in their alliance which both knew was temporary, and which Stalin entered after Western European powers rejected him. Please, please get facts from a source whose agenda isn't demonizing Russia and Germany. I just said that Stalin was wanted in nation alliances anti nazi pact, but he got banned for attacking Finland as they tolerated attack on Poland, although nobody actually believed Poland was a heavy aggressor for Soviet union and for communism, that's not demonizing, that's what actually happened while usa didn't bother in any diplomatic relations between us and Europe |
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Post by Jean-Luc Picard on Mar 7, 2017 14:20:04 GMT
They celebrated the victory in their alliance which both knew was temporary, and which Stalin entered after Western European powers rejected him. Please, please get facts from a source whose agenda isn't demonizing Russia and Germany. I just said that Stalin was wanted in nation alliances anti nazi pact, but he got banned for attacking Finland as they tolerated attack on Poland, although nobody actually believed Poland was a heavy aggressor for Soviet union and for communism, that's not demonizing, that's what actually happened while usa didn't bother in any diplomatic relations between us and Europe Pal, that's untrue. England and France wanted nothing to do with the Soviets, as they even kept them out of the league of nations (as you so aptly said) |
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Post by Quintus Fabius on Mar 7, 2017 14:23:29 GMT
A belated reply: 1. Read Mein Kampf, especially the chapter titled Nation and Race. The Shadow Chancellor wrote it not to be used as propaganda, but to be literally his biography. 2. You might say: Molotov-Ribbentrop! Hilter and Stalin were allies until Barbarossa and they probably went on vacations to Odessa together! NO. Hilter was desperate for resources, and the only way he could get it at the start of the war without triggering a D-DAY 4 years earlier than IRL was to get it from a friendly power. Stalin wanted an anti-fascist pact with the UK and France, but neither really trusted the USSR and refused his offers of an alliance. He also was currently in the process of getting his army massacred by the Finns in the Winter War, and didn't want the rest of his army massacred as well while he was focusing on Finland. Therefore, both had common cause to make an NAP of convenience. Both still hated each other, but there were other things than each other to focus on for the two dictators. And yes, I know that they had combined parades and whatnot in Poland or somewhere, but so did Napoleon and Russia. And I refuse to believe Napoleon was BFFs forever with Alexander I in thee Napoleonic Wars. /endrant Wrong France and UK and the nation alliance wanted Stalin in anti fascist pact, but he instead signed pact with hitler and went in Poland(actually see movie I posted before 39:00and further), that's tolerable from nation alliance point of view, but when Stalin went to Finland then nation alliance banned him with those 3 already banned. Actually Stalin and Hitler celebrated victory over Poland together. Exhibit 1. Munich agreement. The USSR was excluded. Exhibit 2. Prewar alliances with Poland against Germany. USSR was excluded again. (Of course, another factor was probably that Poland would probably rather be destroyed than trust a Russian) |
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Post by Kal Wardin on Mar 7, 2017 14:23:49 GMT
I just said that Stalin was wanted in nation alliances anti nazi pact, but he got banned for attacking Finland as they tolerated attack on Poland, although nobody actually believed Poland was a heavy aggressor for Soviet union and for communism, that's not demonizing, that's what actually happened while usa didn't bother in any diplomatic relations between us and Europe Pal, that's untrue. England and France wanted nothing to do with the Soviets, as they even kept them out of the league of nations (as you so aptly said) England and France feared ww1 and they wanted to do everything to not allow that although they could do nothing when hitler annexed Austria |
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Post by Jean-Luc Picard on Mar 7, 2017 14:28:34 GMT
Pal, that's untrue. England and France wanted nothing to do with the Soviets, as they even kept them out of the league of nations (as you so aptly said) England and France feared ww1 and they wanted to do everything to not allow that although they could do nothing when hitler annexed Austria Incorrect! They feared a repeat WWI so they let Hitler have Austria and the Sudetenland even though they had the power to stop him right there, since his army was smaller. By 1939, his army was too big to stop easily |
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Post by Kal Wardin on Mar 7, 2017 14:38:13 GMT
Wrong France and UK and the nation alliance wanted Stalin in anti fascist pact, but he instead signed pact with hitler and went in Poland(actually see movie I posted before 39:00and further), that's tolerable from nation alliance point of view, but when Stalin went to Finland then nation alliance banned him with those 3 already banned. Actually Stalin and Hitler celebrated victory over Poland together. Exhibit 1. Munich agreement. The USSR was excluded. Exhibit 2. Prewar alliances with Poland against Germany. USSR was excluded again. (Of course, another factor was probably that Poland would probably rather be destroyed than trust a Russian) USSR was discluded because the Stalin was discussing it with the nation union, and his interest was in Poland, Baltics and Finland while he had no reason to attack and no actual partnership that would allow this, while hitler annexed Austria and Czechoslovakia, but he couldn't advance further to Poland nor France. Mussolini was still busy with opposition and mafia, it took him 3months to stop Sicilian mafia, but after Americans got to Sicily it took 3 days to fully reinstate activity of mafia, anyway Mussolini was busy with internal affairs and he thought hitlers proposal would end his internal problems when they would go to war. The same was going on in Spain, but Spain officially stayed neutral although there were Spanish divisions in both German and Italian armies. That is the situation of 1936-1940 |
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Post by Kal Wardin on Mar 7, 2017 14:38:52 GMT
England and France feared ww1 and they wanted to do everything to not allow that although they could do nothing when hitler annexed Austria Incorrect! They feared a repeat WWI so they let Hitler have Austria and the Sudetenland even though they had the power to stop him right there, since his army was smaller. By 1939, his army was too big to stop easily That's basically what I just said... |
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Post by Quintus Fabius on Mar 7, 2017 14:42:23 GMT
Exhibit 1. Munich agreement. The USSR was excluded. Exhibit 2. Prewar alliances with Poland against Germany. USSR was excluded again. (Of course, another factor was probably that Poland would probably rather be destroyed than trust a Russian) USSR was discluded because the Stalin was discussing it with the nation union, and his interest was in Poland, Baltics and Finland while he had no reason to attack and no actual partnership that would allow this, while hitler annexed Austria and Czechoslovakia, but he couldn't advance further to Poland nor France. Mussolini was still busy with opposition and mafia, it took him 3months to stop Sicilian mafia, but after Americans got to Sicily it took 3 days to fully reinstate activity of mafia, anyway Mussolini was busy with internal affairs and he thought hitlers proposal would end his internal problems when they would go to war. The same was going on in Spain, but Spain officially stayed neutral although there were Spanish divisions in both German and Italian armies. That is the situation of 1936-1940 So how does this relate to your idea that the NSDAP and the Communists were actively cooperating? |
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Post by Kal Wardin on Mar 7, 2017 14:45:03 GMT
USSR was discluded because the Stalin was discussing it with the nation union, and his interest was in Poland, Baltics and Finland while he had no reason to attack and no actual partnership that would allow this, while hitler annexed Austria and Czechoslovakia, but he couldn't advance further to Poland nor France. Mussolini was still busy with opposition and mafia, it took him 3months to stop Sicilian mafia, but after Americans got to Sicily it took 3 days to fully reinstate activity of mafia, anyway Mussolini was busy with internal affairs and he thought hitlers proposal would end his internal problems when they would go to war. The same was going on in Spain, but Spain officially stayed neutral although there were Spanish divisions in both German and Italian armies. That is the situation of 1936-1940 So how does this relate to your idea that the NSDAP and the Communists were actively cooperating? They weren't, they were discussing the terms, but Stalin wanted that nation alliance would allow him to annect Baltic states and Finland, they disapproved, that led to Stalin taking hitlers side |
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Post by Jean-Luc Picard on Mar 7, 2017 14:49:58 GMT
Incorrect! They feared a repeat WWI so they let Hitler have Austria and the Sudetenland even though they had the power to stop him right there, since his army was smaller. By 1939, his army was too big to stop easily That's basically what I just said... That's not what you said. You said they couldn't stop him, when really they could but chose not to |
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Post by Kal Wardin on Mar 7, 2017 14:52:47 GMT
That's basically what I just said... That's not what you said. You said they couldn't stop him, when really they could but chose not to They choose not to, because they feared to initiate ww2 while his military wasn't strong, germans were very mad about ww1 and nobody could predict what would Italy and Spain do if they attecked hitler, that's why they feared to do anything. |
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