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Post by Kal Wardin on Mar 6, 2017 15:24:59 GMT
I don't know where a lot of you took that nazi and soviets were sworn enemies etc, that's clearly propaganda.
1)I must remind you that there was Molotovs-Ribentrops pact.
2)original pact only decided invasion in Poland, after Poland was taken Stalin with his initiative asked Hitler for further movement in eastern and northern Europe starting by Finland.
3) it's hard to find, but there are a lot of legit pictures where in Poland nazi and soviet commanders celebrated together and decided that nobody needs free Poland, so they splitted it
4)when Germany and Soviet union attacked Poland local people already awaited both when they got to cities and both often fought together.
5)when Hitler decided to attack Soviet union Stalin wasn't prepared for that as he thought they were sworn allies as of Stalin had took Hitlers side publicly already from the time when Hitler attacked Austria and later Czechoslovakia at nation alliance and got kicked out for that.
6)at 1939 there were 4 countries kicked out of nation alliance Japan, Italy, Germany and USSR.
7)there were more than 2 sides in this war look at Asia while nazi had alliance with japan, china and ussr, while Japan fought against china, china had civil war with 3 sides and ussr was fighting Japan.
For some facts it is good to see this movie although there are some propaganda which I saw, 95% of facts there are legit
Moderated: link to the movie has been removed since by the OP own admission (and the observations of others) it contains propaganda.
Saltin
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Post by Jean-Luc Picard on Mar 6, 2017 15:31:41 GMT
1. That's a propaganda movie
2. The Reichstag Fire, which Hitler blamed on Communists, was how he rose to power
3. There was a hate triangle between the Fascists (Nazi Germany, Italy, Japan), the USSR, and the Western Democracy. R-B was an alliance of convenience, not of ideological brotherhood
4. Battlefield camaraderie between Nazi and Soviet troops indicates nothing about their ideologies.
5. The Axis powers and the USSR had something else in common: Totalitarian despotism. Any high schooler in America knows that.
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Post by Kal Wardin on Mar 6, 2017 15:43:19 GMT
1. That's a propaganda movie 2. The Reichstag Fire, which Hitler blamed on Communists, was how he rose to power 3. There was a hate triangle between the Fascists (Nazi Germany, Italy, Japan), the USSR, and the Western Democracy. R-B was an alliance of convenience, not of ideological brotherhood 4. Battlefield camaraderie between Nazi and Soviet troops indicates nothing about their ideologies. 5. The Axis powers and the USSR had something else in common: Totalitarian despotism. Any high schooler in America knows that. 1)There is very few things that are about propaganda in that movie. 2)Yes communists of Germany not communists of soviet union. 4)Well how about their leaders then? 3)It was not a triangle it was a octagon at the very least. 5) they are marxism based ideologies which, which actually has been made on Platoons idea of country |
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Post by Desophaeus on Mar 7, 2017 2:04:10 GMT
Kal Wardin... you haven't read the original text of Mein Kampf. Hilter was calling the Russian/German/ANY Communists as beasts hardly befitting the status of humanity and called them Jewish-Bolsheviks in a very harsh and blunt tone. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_BolshevismIf you don't believe me, this has been well-documented. Check the link. This is for Russian communists. The Nazis were also clashing with the German communists on a very violent basis, back and forth. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism"The SA ("storm troopers", also known as "Brownshirts") were founded as a party militia in 1921, and began violent attacks on other parties." From: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_PartyMore specific: "During 1931 and into 1932, Germany's political crisis deepened. In March 1932 Hitler ran for President against the incumbent President Paul von Hindenburg, polling 30.1% in the first round and 36.8% in the second against Hindenburg's 49 and 53%. By now the SA had 400,000 members, and its running street battles with the SPD and Communist paramilitaries (who also fought each other) reduced some German cities to combat zones.Anyone who has studied the rise of Nazism or the Holocaust will know about this tension and hatred of Hilter's against what he calls "Jewish-Bolsheviks" which he has repeated many, many, many times in his countless speeches. It was pretty clear that Hilter and the Nazis had a very strong deepened hatred for Communists, a lot more than the democratic favoring people such as Americans, British, etc...
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Post by Kal Wardin on Mar 7, 2017 7:03:47 GMT
Kal Wardin... you haven't read the original text of Mein Kampf. Hilter was calling the Russian/German/ANY Communists as beasts hardly befitting the status of humanity and called them Jewish-Bolsheviks in a very harsh and blunt tone. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_BolshevismIf you don't believe me, this has been well-documented. Check the link. This is for Russian communists. The Nazis were also clashing with the German communists on a very violent basis, back and forth. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism"The SA ("storm troopers", also known as "Brownshirts") were founded as a party militia in 1921, and began violent attacks on other parties." From: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_PartyMore specific: "During 1931 and into 1932, Germany's political crisis deepened. In March 1932 Hitler ran for President against the incumbent President Paul von Hindenburg, polling 30.1% in the first round and 36.8% in the second against Hindenburg's 49 and 53%. By now the SA had 400,000 members, and its running street battles with the SPD and Communist paramilitaries (who also fought each other) reduced some German cities to combat zones.Anyone who has studied the rise of Nazism or the Holocaust will know about this tension and hatred of Hilter's against what he calls "Jewish-Bolsheviks" which he has repeated many, many, many times in his countless speeches. It was pretty clear that Hilter and the Nazis had a very strong deepened hatred for Communists, a lot more than the democratic favoring people such as Americans, British, etc... Mein kampf was just a way to get nazi party to control, in reality he worked with all communists out of Germany in late 1930-. Even French communists (which in large scale was Stalins involvement)supported hitler and sabotaged French army when germans attacked, and after germans took Paris they celebrated together. Only when germans were beaten French communists said that they have resisted,while this obviously wasn't true. |
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Post by Frederick the Great on Mar 7, 2017 7:32:37 GMT
I'm going to be slightly blunt here, though not nearly as blunt as I would like to be.
You are WRONG. Completly and utterly wrong. What you are saying is factually inccorect. Hitler himself is probably writhing around in his grade at the sheer stupidity and falsehood of the crap you're claiming. Hitler in his own bloody memoirs stated that he hated the communists over and over again. When he invaded the Soviet Union he had the SS kill commissars and even before the invastion of the USSR, hell even before the invasion of Poland, Hitler was sending GERMAN COMMUNITS to concentration camps simply because they were communists. HITLER AND THE NAZIS DID NOT SUPPORT COMMUNISM! They were inherently and ideologically opposed to it. I am sick of you spouting lies (It's so hard not to use a certain word here). Either you're trying to cause arguments by claiming crap or you simply have no idea what you're talking about (even my friends who hardly pay attention in history class would know how wrong you are). In any case you should SHUT UP! I am sick of you coming here and doing this sort of things. First you state that Australians and Indians basicly speak broken English now you're claiming something that is completly untrue and has mountains of evidence to prove you are wrong.
If you want to be a part of our community here, on this forum then contribute positively. Don't make up crap and spout it here expecting us to believe you. I'm sick and I'm sick of this and I'm not in the mood to listen to this crap (again, there's a word that suits this perfectly but I think the mods would frown on its use).
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Post by Kal Wardin on Mar 7, 2017 7:45:09 GMT
Frederick the Great, calm down. We know that Kal Wardin isn't legit. I quote myself: Anyone who has studied the rise of Nazism or the Holocaust will know about this tension and hatred of Hilter's against what he calls "Jewish-Bolsheviks" which he has repeated many, many, many times in his countless speeches. It was pretty clear that Hilter and the Nazis had a very strong deepened hatred for Communists, a lot more than the democratic favoring people such as Americans, British, etc... Pretty sure if he didn't get this one right, he's no student of history. Now that we've clear evidence that he's way off-base with his wild theories, we can simply request a lock. Mountbatten, Jean-Luc Picard, Erich von Manstein @whoeverelsecandoalockpleaseandthankyou Come on where have you lived for last 20 years ex french communists have already said this publicly not even mentioning that there is a footage of Paris after conquering... |
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Post by Yi Sun Sin on Mar 7, 2017 7:50:49 GMT
Ummmm if Hitler and Stalin were besties, then why would've Hitler attacked the Soviets in the first place?
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Post by Kal Wardin on Mar 7, 2017 7:51:08 GMT
I'm going to be slightly blunt here, though not nearly as blunt as I would like to be. You are WRONG. Completly and utterly wrong. What you are saying is factually inccorect. Hitler himself is probably writhing around in his grade at the sheer stupidity and falsehood of the crap you're claiming. Hitler in his own bloody memoirs stated that he hated the communists over and over again. When he invaded the Soviet Union he had the SS kill commissars and even before the invastion of the USSR, hell even before the invasion of Poland, Hitler was sending GERMAN COMMUNITS to concentration camps simply because they were communists. HITLER AND THE NAZIS DID NOT SUPPORT COMMUNISM! They were inherently and ideologically opposed to it. I am sick of you spouting lies (It's so hard not to use a certain word here). Either you're trying to cause arguments by claiming crap or you simply have no idea what you're talking about (even my friends who hardly pay attention in history class would know how wrong you are). In any case you should SHUT UP! I am sick of you coming here and doing this sort of things. First you state that Australians and Indians basicly speak broken English now you're claiming something that is completly untrue and has mountains of evidence to prove you are wrong. If you want to be a part of our community here, on this forum then contribute positively. Don't make up crap and spout it here expecting us to believe you. I'm sick and I'm sick of this and I'm not in the mood to listen to this crap (again, there's a word that suits this perfectly but I think the mods would frown on its use). Yes German communists not anyone else's communists... come to Europe, go around museums you will learn something...
Hitler wrote a lot and in Europe it is no secret that a lot of what he wrote he didn't actually fully realize, for example a lot of hitlers high ranking officers (including some generals) were Jews, and you know what they didn't die in Auschwitz, a lot of them died from soviet hands... |
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Post by Kal Wardin on Mar 7, 2017 7:53:05 GMT
Ummmm if Hitler and Stalin were besties, then why would've Hitler attacked the Soviets in the first place? They weren't besties, they were partners, Stalin knew hitler would attack eventually, but he thought that uk will be defeated before that will happen, let me remind 65% of hitlers resources came from ussr. |
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Post by Frederick the Great on Mar 7, 2017 7:54:03 GMT
I'm going to be slightly blunt here, though not nearly as blunt as I would like to be. You are WRONG. Completly and utterly wrong. What you are saying is factually inccorect. Hitler himself is probably writhing around in his grade at the sheer stupidity and falsehood of the crap you're claiming. Hitler in his own bloody memoirs stated that he hated the communists over and over again. When he invaded the Soviet Union he had the SS kill commissars and even before the invastion of the USSR, hell even before the invasion of Poland, Hitler was sending GERMAN COMMUNITS to concentration camps simply because they were communists. HITLER AND THE NAZIS DID NOT SUPPORT COMMUNISM! They were inherently and ideologically opposed to it. I am sick of you spouting lies (It's so hard not to use a certain word here). Either you're trying to cause arguments by claiming crap or you simply have no idea what you're talking about (even my friends who hardly pay attention in history class would know how wrong you are). In any case you should SHUT UP! I am sick of you coming here and doing this sort of things. First you state that Australians and Indians basicly speak broken English now you're claiming something that is completly untrue and has mountains of evidence to prove you are wrong. If you want to be a part of our community here, on this forum then contribute positively. Don't make up crap and spout it here expecting us to believe you. I'm sick and I'm sick of this and I'm not in the mood to listen to this crap (again, there's a word that suits this perfectly but I think the mods would frown on its use). Yes German communists not anyone else's communists... come to Europe, go around museums you will learn something...
Hitler wrote a lot and in Europe it is no secret that a lot of what he wrote he didn't actually fully realize, for example a lot of hitlers high ranking officers (including some generals) were Jews, and you know what they didn't die in Auschwitz, a lot of them died from soviet hands... Are denying the [Insert expletives here] Holocaust?!?!?!!? The Soviets where certainly no saints but the Holocaust was real. Real people died in a very real even. Claiming the Holocuast never happened (when there is significant evidence that it did) is in my eyes as good as condoning what happened and I stress that it actually happened! |
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Post by Kal Wardin on Mar 7, 2017 8:35:17 GMT
On quick hand I can't find the video I wanted to post(wasn't hoping to either), but I will find it eventually,
anyway I bet some of you have seen it anyway, so there was German military personnel with French communists sitting in cafe and there was clear attributic showing that, that could be the best I can get without getting in French or German archive's, where I currently can't get...
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Post by Laurent de Gouvion on Mar 7, 2017 10:16:48 GMT
On quick hand I can't find the video I wanted to post(wasn't hoping to either), but I will find it eventually,
anyway I bet some of you have seen it anyway, so there was German military personnel with French communists sitting in cafe and there was clear attributic showing that, that could be the best I can get without getting in French or German archive's, where I currently can't get... That doesn't necessarily mean they were friendly. I looked up the French Communists on Wikipedia, and it doesn't look like they were friendly to the National Socialists.
"The PCF's 72 deputies (along with only three others) opposed the ratification of the Munich Accords, signed by Daladier and Neville Chamberlain. The PCF believed that the accords would allow Hitler to turn his attention eastwards, towards the Soviet Union."
At that time, not even Great Britain and France (who would be steadfast enemies later in the war) opposed the Munich Accords. The French Communists opposed the accords, which would lead me to believe they didn't like the National Socialists much. Your point about the French Communists sabotaging the French Army? Well, France banned the Party in 1939. It's obvious that the ban would be the main reason they sabotaged, not some deal with the National Socialists. Now, on meeting German personnel. It is important to see the context here. The French government had fallen and the Communists tried to ask Germany to legalize them, promising not to resist against the occupiers. While there was compromise in some parts of the Party, the Germans kept the ban on the Communists, as they did the Communists of all other nations. "In August 1940, a new policy categorically forbade any expressions of solidarity with the occupiers and limited interactions between the PCF and the occupiers."
"The National Front...... was a World War II French Resistance movement, created in 1941 by Jacques Duclos and Pierre Villon, both members of the French Communist Party (PCF)"
Both quotes from Wikipedia. Clearly, it shows that the French Communists were among the first to organize a resistance, as it became clear the Germans would not compromise. What you have talked about doesn't lead to anything without context, which I have provided. About Communists in Europe having friendly relations with National Socialists..... What about Tito's partisans, the most effective resistance movement in WWII, which was led by the Communists? What about ELAS, the largest partisan army in Greece, which was formed by the Communists? What about the Italian Committee of National Liberation, one of the founding parties being Communist? I could list many more examples, but I'd just like to summarize it. Some Communists, seeing their first objective as anti-Imperialists, might have had sympathy with the National Socialists. However, when exposed to the anti-Communist nature of National Socialist ideology, the Communists were among the first to resist. Not that I'm glorifying the Communists as the main resistance against National Socialism. All nations and all ideologies contributed in the defeat of National Socialism, it is just that the OP's attempts to paint the Communists as partners with Germans, not even bothering about context, bothers me. Anyway, I'd just like to say one very important thing: Remember where this debate came from.
AFAIK, the shoutbox started discussing it only because a new member had the National Socialist username, and some members urged to change it. Nothing wrong with that conversation, really. It's even really positive and productive to the community. But now, it's turned to this debate for some reason. A debate that nearly veers to the political and has caused some members to be annoyed. Including me. Alright, I've let off my steam. Feel free to respond, but I certainly won't do the same. |
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Post by saltin on Mar 7, 2017 13:36:09 GMT
OOT:I have somewhat sanitized this thread as it was getting a bit out of hand.As a reminder and to avoid being found in breach of our community rules members cannot insult each other or engage in name calling or purposefully derail someone else thread. Either debate an OP (original poster) or get out of his thread and go start your own. All members that start their own threads should expect a legitimate discussion on their topic without being bashed or derailed. Again if you do not like the discussion or strongly disagree then there are only 2 choices: 1/Engage into the topic (leave the emotion business out) 2/Choose not to participate in that thread.
In topic: Germany and the USSR had a secret pact at the start of WW2 comitting themselves to neutrality and to not helping each other enemies or creating an alliance with them.They also devised sphere of influence and planned to divide lands taken from other countries. More on this hereOf course Hitler hated communism just as he hated democracies and everyone else who wasnt him.Still it was a marriage of convenience,both Hitler and Stalin knew they would eventually go to war,both knew the "friendship" was just temporary but they both needed the truce.
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Post by Bismarck Jr on Mar 7, 2017 13:54:42 GMT
As a German I'm sensitive to this and won't get too far in
If you want to take the propaganda away and let history be history then fine.
Communists were sent to concentration camps. That is history.
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