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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2017 22:23:57 GMT
Then is Napoleon the best Artillery General in the game? He only gets more powerful Also might upgrade li to 5* instead of using Bismarck as a super mortar without no retaliation is not very good and he does not have as high of attack Yes Napoleon is the best artillery general in the game. All the IAP generals (+Caesar) are the best in their category. |
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Post by andrei on Mar 17, 2017 22:30:43 GMT
1) Deff lower than Cleopatra's? Are You sure? 2) Attack is also debatable. Only if comparing Cleo's attack at lv60 under Inspiration against Bismark's attack at lv50. But who said that Bismark must stay at lv50? No retaliation for the unit with range 3 and with Walls as a main target is not that important. So Bismark has better stats even taking into account Cleo's Inspiration always active. Moreover he has one more better skill (Explosive Master) and one more additional (General) which is not that important but anyway better than nothing in comparison to Cleo. I mean same level for both. Cleopatra's inspiration makes her stat already between Koxinga and Bismarck, with good enough equipment(remember Inspiration effects equipment also), exceeding Bismarck with same equipment is not impossible. Bismarck 6 stars? With that crappy anti-cav bonus? Not a good deal for me. Just doing some math here. lvl 60 Bismarck: 442/96 lvl 60 Cleopatra: 373/68 Morale Bonus is 115% Inspired Cleopatra: 373/68*115%=428/78 Do you think it's hard to exceed Bismarck? I see that You are trying to justify Your opinion with doubtful argument. In order to match Bismark stats she needs weapon with +10 better attack and +15 better defence. It means that she needs gold equipment instead of purple which is normally used on the Artillery general. There are a lot of free purple equipment in the campaigns/conquests so You could supply all Your team with it. My Bismark who was not used in all my missions is in purple equipment. So, the question is: whether You are going to give her legendary set/best purple or not? I think the answer is evident. I simply see no any reason why anybody should give better items to the Artillerist to the disadvantage of other team members who are much more important for the team. Your judgement looks like: Hey, Cleo could be better because You could equip her with better items. Don't You think it sounds a bit weird? |
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Post by Erich von Manstein on Mar 17, 2017 22:58:37 GMT
I simply see no any reason why anybody should give better items to the Artillerist to the disadvantage of other team members who are much more important for the team. Your judgement looks like: Hey, Cleo could be better because You could equip her with better items. Don't You think it sounds a bit weird? 1. Your Saladin and Nobunaga can never smash an enemy VP base like Cleopatra. 2. For this judgement, it should add "when she is attacking forts" at the end, switching equipment during campaign is easy. I started the debate is not for bashing anyone, but trying to convince everyone that one choice makes sense. I'm not saying that Bismarck and Li Shimin are crap, the only thing is to let people know Cleopatra works, and in fact pretty well, not the same as Columbus, so people don't have to say use Bismarck Li Shimin, Li Shimin Bismarck as their only double artillery option. |
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Post by andrei on Mar 17, 2017 23:17:27 GMT
I simply see no any reason why anybody should give better items to the Artillerist to the disadvantage of other team members who are much more important for the team. Your judgement looks like: Hey, Cleo could be better because You could equip her with better items. Don't You think it sounds a bit weird? 1. Your Saladin and Nobunaga can never smash an enemy VP base like Cleopatra. 2. For this judgement, it should add "when she is attacking forts" at the end, switching equipment during campaign is easy. I started the debate is not for bashing anyone, but trying to convince everyone that one choice makes sense. I'm not saying that Bismarck and Li Shimin are crap, the only thing is to let people know Cleopatra works, and in fact pretty well, not the same as Columbus, so people don't have to say use Bismarck Li Shimin, Li Shimin Bismarck as their only double artillery option. I am also not trying to offend or anything like that .. but I was a bit surprised with Your comparing. You said Cleo has better att&deff but that is not true. That's what I am saying. I see what You are saying regarding the alternative. Yes - she is an alternative. But she has worse stats as You showed with the calculations above. Your artillery will most likely finish the game with the weapon like Spiked Gun or Warrior Sword. And its stat raised with Inspiration will not beat Bismark stats. That is what I am saying. Nothing else. Of course nobody is oblidged to use Bismark - I am not trying to convince anybody (I am trying to support my view with objective reasons), but he is free and a bit better. Why not? |
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Post by Erich von Manstein on Mar 18, 2017 0:59:49 GMT
1. Your Saladin and Nobunaga can never smash an enemy VP base like Cleopatra. 2. For this judgement, it should add "when she is attacking forts" at the end, switching equipment during campaign is easy. I started the debate is not for bashing anyone, but trying to convince everyone that one choice makes sense. I'm not saying that Bismarck and Li Shimin are crap, the only thing is to let people know Cleopatra works, and in fact pretty well, not the same as Columbus, so people don't have to say use Bismarck Li Shimin, Li Shimin Bismarck as their only double artillery option. I am also not trying to offend or anything like that .. but I was a bit surprised with Your comparing. You said Cleo has better att&deff but that is not true. That's what I am saying. I see what You are saying regarding the alternative. Yes - she is an alternative. But she has worse stats as You showed with the calculations above. Your artillery will most likely finish the game with the weapon like Spiked Gun or Warrior Sword. And its stat raised with Inspiration will not beat Bismark stats. That is what I am saying. Nothing else. Of course nobody is oblidged to use Bismark - I am not trying to convince anybody (I am trying to support my view with objective reasons), but he is free and a bit better. Why not? That's true. EW5 has high freedom, the pathways can be completely different. The main reason I bring up Cleopatra is not being rival against Bismarck, but Li Shimin, I just want people to know that Cleopatra exists as a fine alternative instead of spending 11k for Li Shimin. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2017 2:52:13 GMT
Jeez if I knew li was so expensive... was he worth it? I think so he has logistics and good stats good for me
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Post by Imperial RomeBall on Mar 18, 2017 3:02:46 GMT
1) Deff lower than Cleopatra's? Are You sure? 2) Attack is also debatable. Only if comparing Cleo's attack at lv60 under Inspiration against Bismark's attack at lv50. But who said that Bismark must stay at lv50? No retaliation for the unit with range 3 and with Walls as a main target is not that important. So Bismark has better stats even taking into account Cleo's Inspiration always active. Moreover he has one more better skill (Explosive Master) and one more additional (General) which is not that important but anyway better than nothing in comparison to Cleo. I mean same level for both. Cleopatra's inspiration makes her stat already between Koxinga and Bismarck, with good enough equipment(remember Inspiration effects equipment also), exceeding Bismarck with same equipment is not impossible. Bismarck 6 stars? With that crappy anti-cav bonus? Not a good deal for me. Just doing some math here. lvl 60 Bismarck: 442/96 lvl 60 Cleopatra: 373/68 Morale Bonus is 115% Inspired Cleopatra: 373/68*115%=428/78 Do you think it's hard to exceed Bismarck? Sure, Cleopatra fully upgraded might exceed Bismarck, though your math seems to suggest equality. At least she has mobility instead of anti-cav. BUT, what about Li Shimin? Shimin has better stats than Bismarck, better second ability (more realistic than cleopatra mobility, considering Artillery have low attack) and skills that equal or more likely beat Bismarck. The title of this thread is Bismarck vs Li Shimin. If you are spending the medals, like me, Li Shimin is clearly superior. If he is superior to Bismarck than he is superior to cleopatra, plus I outlined why he would be. However, Cleopatra is by far cheaper than Li Shimin, though she has to be upgraded from classical to industrial, Bismarck only to industrial (and why would you). Probably still cheaper though. |
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Post by stoic on Mar 18, 2017 3:03:11 GMT
I think von Manstein's argument is valid for early stages of the game. But at a later stage the difference between best generals and good cheap altenatives could be crucial... The only one replacement for Li Shimin (or Napoleon) in my opinion is Heihachiro. But it is possible to use Cleo before him and Bismarck.
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Post by Imperial RomeBall on Mar 18, 2017 3:04:36 GMT
Jeez if I knew li was so expensive... was he worth it? I think so he has logistics and good stats good for me Since you already got him...he is worth it. He is much stronger than Bismarck, I doubt the same is not true for Cleopatra. You have a very strong general on your hands, just unfortunate that he costs every bit of that power. |
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Post by Erich von Manstein on Mar 18, 2017 3:23:39 GMT
Jeez if I knew li was so expensive... was he worth it? I think so he has logistics and good stats good for me Worth the investment, just 11k is not cheap. |
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Post by Erich von Manstein on Mar 18, 2017 3:26:16 GMT
I mean same level for both. Cleopatra's inspiration makes her stat already between Koxinga and Bismarck, with good enough equipment(remember Inspiration effects equipment also), exceeding Bismarck with same equipment is not impossible. Bismarck 6 stars? With that crappy anti-cav bonus? Not a good deal for me. Just doing some math here. lvl 60 Bismarck: 442/96 lvl 60 Cleopatra: 373/68 Morale Bonus is 115% Inspired Cleopatra: 373/68*115%=428/78 Do you think it's hard to exceed Bismarck? Sure, Cleopatra fully upgraded might exceed Bismarck, though your math seems to suggest equality. At least she has mobility instead of anti-cav. BUT, what about Li Shimin? Shimin has better stats than Bismarck, better second ability (more realistic than cleopatra mobility, considering Artillery have low attack) and skills that equal or more likely beat Bismarck. The title of this thread is Bismarck vs Li Shimin. If you are spending the medals, like me, Li Shimin is clearly superior. If he is superior to Bismarck than he is superior to cleopatra, plus I outlined why he would be. However, Cleopatra is by far cheaper than Li Shimin, though she has to be upgraded from classical to industrial, Bismarck only to industrial (and why would you). Probably still cheaper though. By stat Li Shimin is better, of course. But considering the medal... I would like to spend that 11k for someone else. |
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Post by Erich von Manstein on Mar 18, 2017 3:28:13 GMT
I think von Manstein's argument is valid for early stages of the game. But at a later stage the difference between best generals and good cheap altenatives could be crucial... The only one replacement for Li Shimin (or Napoleon) in my opinion is Heihachiro. But it is possible to use Cleo before him and Bismarck. Don't forget Rumor, Cleopatra+Bismarck=51% confuse, it will be 65.7% if Blucher is added. |
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Post by stoic on Mar 18, 2017 3:46:04 GMT
I think von Manstein's argument is valid for early stages of the game. But at a later stage the difference between best generals and good cheap altenatives could be crucial... The only one replacement for Li Shimin (or Napoleon) in my opinion is Heihachiro. But it is possible to use Cleo before him and Bismarck. Don't forget Rumor, Cleopatra+Bismarck=51% confuse, it will be 65.7% if Blucher is added. I do not think rumor works that way :-) It is 30% probability and another 30% probability without interactions between them. Heihachiro on the other hand has "Commander" skill, good defense and "no retaliation". Sometimes two art generals are necessary, so he could be very usefull (and half the price of Li Shimin)... |
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Post by Erich von Manstein on Mar 18, 2017 3:58:32 GMT
Don't forget Rumor, Cleopatra+Bismarck=51% confuse, it will be 65.7% if Blucher is added. I do not think rumor works that way :-) It is 30% probability and another 30% probability without interactions between them. Heihachiro on the other hand has "Commander" skill, good defense and "no retaliation". Sometimes two art generals are necessary, so he could be very usefull (and half the price of Li Shimin)... This is my calculation. Max is 30% probability, so it is 70% not happening. Cleopatra and Bismarck attack twice, so it is 70% of 70%. 100%-(70%*70%)=51%. |
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Post by stoic on Mar 18, 2017 4:16:37 GMT
Let's compare it to choosing red or black cards in casino. Even if only red cards appeared before, it is still 50/50 probability, isn't it? It does not matter what was before that moment. And what do you say about Heihachiro?
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