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Goring
Sept 20, 2017 14:31:30 GMT
via mobile
Post by USSR ball on Sept 20, 2017 14:31:30 GMT
The only curse that we already have in the very begining even we were cavemen, is war, sound legit, right?
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Goring
Sept 21, 2017 7:48:05 GMT
Post by stoic on Sept 21, 2017 7:48:05 GMT
The only curse that we already have in the very begining even we were cavemen, is war, sound legit, right? You make it sound so sad, but there is reason in your words  |
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Goring
Sept 21, 2017 13:47:46 GMT
via mobile
Post by USSR ball on Sept 21, 2017 13:47:46 GMT
The only curse that we already have in the very begining even we were cavemen, is war, sound legit, right? You make it sound so sad, but there is reason in your words There're many things that is the reason 2 cause war: colony, territory, money, oil, revenge,... |
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Goring
Sept 22, 2017 7:51:11 GMT
via mobile
Post by Nobunaga Oda on Sept 22, 2017 7:51:11 GMT
You make it sound so sad, but there is reason in your words There're many things that is the reason 2 cause war: colony, territory, money, oil, revenge,... Or love (Trojan War), the people (started 2nd Sino-Jap War earlier/at all due to Nationalism), craving for power, necessity (WW2 to stop Agressive Nazi Germany at first), and many more reasons. Anyways, back to talking about Goering. |
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Goring
Sept 22, 2017 14:35:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by USSR ball on Sept 22, 2017 14:35:26 GMT
There're many things that is the reason 2 cause war: colony, territory, money, oil, revenge,... Or love (Trojan War), the people (started 2nd Sino-Jap War earlier/at all due to Nationalism), craving for power, necessity (WW2 to stop Agressive Nazi Germany at first), and many more reasons. Anyways, back to talking about Goering. Welp, just like the Downfall Hitler said, he is a corrupt imbecile LOL |
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Goring
Sept 22, 2017 15:13:53 GMT
via mobile
Post by soonerjbd on Sept 22, 2017 15:13:53 GMT
Am I the only one who refuses to buy the worst of the Nazi war criminal generals? Guderian and Rommel were never accused of war crimes. Manstein was a war criminal and certainly knew about Nazi extermination squads, but he didn't directly participate in the most heinous stuff. Kesselring was convicted of war crimes, but many maintain he only had partisans executed who were attacking his forces. I have issues with any Nazi, but I can stomach these guys on my roster.
Göring? Model? Keitel? Those guys were monsters. Yeah, war is a dirty business. Yamashita was executed, but he was held responsible for actions his men took without his direct knowledge or responsibility. All the major powers did some awful things in building empires and colonies. But it is hard to read about the things Göring did and then use him on my "team."
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Goring
Sept 22, 2017 15:25:50 GMT
via mobile
Post by andrei on Sept 22, 2017 15:25:50 GMT
Am I the only one who refuses to buy the worst of the Nazi war criminal generals? Guderian and Rommel were never accused of war crimes. Manstein was a war criminal and certainly knew about Nazi extermination squads, but he didn't directly participate in the most heinous stuff. Kesselring was convicted of war crimes, but many maintain he only had partisans executed who were attacking his forces. I have issues with any Nazi, but I can stomach these guys on my roster. Göring? Model? Keitel? Those guys were monsters. Yeah, war is a dirty business. Yamashita was executed, but he was held responsible for actions his men took without his direct knowledge or responsibility. All the major powers did some awful things in building empires and colonies. But it is hard to read about the things Göring did and then use him on my "team." Do You really believe these famous nazy generals didn't support the "Ubermensch" ideology? |
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Goring
Sept 22, 2017 15:46:48 GMT
via mobile
Post by soonerjbd on Sept 22, 2017 15:46:48 GMT
Am I the only one who refuses to buy the worst of the Nazi war criminal generals? Guderian and Rommel were never accused of war crimes. Manstein was a war criminal and certainly knew about Nazi extermination squads, but he didn't directly participate in the most heinous stuff. Kesselring was convicted of war crimes, but many maintain he only had partisans executed who were attacking his forces. I have issues with any Nazi, but I can stomach these guys on my roster. Göring? Model? Keitel? Those guys were monsters. Yeah, war is a dirty business. Yamashita was executed, but he was held responsible for actions his men took without his direct knowledge or responsibility. All the major powers did some awful things in building empires and colonies. But it is hard to read about the things Göring did and then use him on my "team." Do You really believe these famous nazy generals didn't support the "Ubermensch" ideology? This stuff is extremely complex. I have a history degree, and I specialized in World War II. I've read extensively about all of these guys. What they did, what they didn't do. The historical context also comes into play. None of them are choir boys. But there are levels of awful. Rommel and Guderian were not directly involved in mass murder. Göring and Keitel were. Other countries had their own atrocities. The Soviets perpetrated mass murders of civilians during the war. Japan participated in the Rape of Nanking. Allied nations were not without their own transgressions. If you are going to play a game like this, you have to acknowledge that you aren't endorsing the regimes that did some of these awful things. I just have a hard time with the worst criminals being playable generals, and I wonder if that isn't why Göring was left out of this game. |
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Goring
Sept 22, 2017 18:46:42 GMT
via mobile
Post by Singlemalt on Sept 22, 2017 18:46:42 GMT
Am I the only one who refuses to buy the worst of the Nazi war criminal generals? Guderian and Rommel were never accused of war crimes. Manstein was a war criminal and certainly knew about Nazi extermination squads, but he didn't directly participate in the most heinous stuff. Kesselring was convicted of war crimes, but many maintain he only had partisans executed who were attacking his forces. I have issues with any Nazi, but I can stomach these guys on my roster. Göring? Model? Keitel? Those guys were monsters. Yeah, war is a dirty business. Yamashita was executed, but he was held responsible for actions his men took without his direct knowledge or responsibility. All the major powers did some awful things in building empires and colonies. But it is hard to read about the things Göring did and then use him on my "team." [] If you get reallity all this stuff isnt right. Just see these guys as tools instead of the reallife shizzlebizzle .. makes life easy  |
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Goring
Sept 22, 2017 21:39:24 GMT
Post by andrei on Sept 22, 2017 21:39:24 GMT
Do You really believe these famous nazy generals didn't support the "Ubermensch" ideology? This stuff is extremely complex. I have a history degree, and I specialized in World War II. I've read extensively about all of these guys. What they did, what they didn't do. The historical context also comes into play. None of them are choir boys. But there are levels of awful. Rommel and Guderian were not directly involved in mass murder. Göring and Keitel were. Other countries had their own atrocities. The Soviets perpetrated mass murders of civilians during the war. Japan participated in the Rape of Nanking. Allied nations were not without their own transgressions. If you are going to play a game like this, you have to acknowledge that you aren't endorsing the regimes that did some of these awful things. I just have a hard time with the worst criminals being playable generals, and I wonder if that isn't why Göring was left out of this game. The stuff is extremely easy imo. For example, Truman wasn't accused of war crimes as he is the representatives of one the country winners. Same with Soviet leaders. That's it. It is very simple. In case someone from Japan/German side would approve atomic bombing how do You think will he be accused? So not being accused doesn't mean anything but.. not being accused. Nazy ideology anticipated phisical extermination of some nations. Do You really think Guderian or Rommel didn't know that? |
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Goring
Sept 23, 2017 1:21:23 GMT
via mobile
Post by soonerjbd on Sept 23, 2017 1:21:23 GMT
This stuff is extremely complex. I have a history degree, and I specialized in World War II. I've read extensively about all of these guys. What they did, what they didn't do. The historical context also comes into play. None of them are choir boys. But there are levels of awful. Rommel and Guderian were not directly involved in mass murder. Göring and Keitel were. Other countries had their own atrocities. The Soviets perpetrated mass murders of civilians during the war. Japan participated in the Rape of Nanking. Allied nations were not without their own transgressions. If you are going to play a game like this, you have to acknowledge that you aren't endorsing the regimes that did some of these awful things. I just have a hard time with the worst criminals being playable generals, and I wonder if that isn't why Göring was left out of this game. The stuff is extremely easy imo. For example, Truman wasn't accused of war crimes as he is the representatives of one the country winners. Same with Soviet leaders. That's it. It is very simple. In case someone from Japan/German side would approve atomic bombing how do You think will he be accused? So not being accused doesn't mean anything but.. not being accused. Nazy ideology anticipated phisical extermination of some nations. Do You really think Guderian or Rommel didn't know that? It's more complex than the winners don't get accused of war crimes. Certainly the execution of Yamashita falls in that category, and there were American officers who protested it. But the Holocaust is different. Nuclear bombing wasn't technically a war crime. Bombing of cities was something all nations did. You can argue about the morality of it, but it was an accepted practice of warfare. The systematic extermination of civilian populations through death squads and gas chambers was and still is an atrocity and a crime against humanity. I'm not saying Rommel and Guderian were innocent. They knew they were waging a war of aggression and conquest. They knew the Nazi regime was anti-Semitic and immoral. They likely had suspicions about what the SS was doing with Jews in occupied Europe. But there is no evidence they knew about the "Final Soultion." Plus, Rommel was forced to kill himself because of evidence he was involved in the bomb plot to kill Hitler. So they aren't innocent, but they aren't the monsters that Göring was. He directly helped to plan the Holocaust. That's a clear distinction. |
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Goring
Sept 23, 2017 5:51:17 GMT
Post by kanue on Sept 23, 2017 5:51:17 GMT
I guess maybe we need to calm down a bit on this issue, chill out, and play game. WC4 is just another ET game and Goring is a potential air general who has yet made his appearance. So I think it would be better if we just see a character in WC4 game who takes a named 'Goring' and has the face looks like 'that guy' as just another 'air general who has yet made his appearance.' Whether or not you want him on this team is up to your preference.
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Goring
Sept 23, 2017 6:07:35 GMT
via mobile
Post by andrei on Sept 23, 2017 6:07:35 GMT
soonerjbdThe only reason why Guderian wasn't accused is because Americans were against that. Soviets wanted to accuse him for his orders for executions of Soviet prisoners of war during his Blitzkrieg raids. Yes, he wasn't accused. Does it mean executions of war prisoners isn't a war crime?
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Goring
Sept 23, 2017 7:05:30 GMT
via mobile
Post by Leonid Govorov on Sept 23, 2017 7:05:30 GMT
I guess maybe we need to calm down a bit on this issue, chill out, and play game. WC4 is just another ET game and Goring is a potential air general who has yet made his appearance. So I think it would be better if we just see a character in WC4 game who takes a named 'Goring' and has the face looks like 'that guy' as just another 'air general who has yet made his appearance.' Whether or not you want him on this team is up to your preference. Haha yeah. Still like him ingame, at least in wc3. Considerably cheap, and beasts on an armoured car. Got that tip from you kanue |
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Goring
Sept 23, 2017 7:07:20 GMT
via mobile
Post by Leonid Govorov on Sept 23, 2017 7:07:20 GMT
soonerjbdThe only reason why Guderian wasn't accused is because Americans were against that. Soviets wanted to accuse him for his orders for executions of Soviet prisoners of war during his Blitzkrieg raids. Yes, he wasn't accused. Does it mean executions of war prisoners isn't a war crime? I agree, but comapre to others(ex Manstein) Guderians crimes arent THAT bad imo(but still did horrible things especially when he was Chief of Staff) |
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