Goring

I'm not meaning to shame or insult anyone else for using an available general in-game. My apologies if it came across that way at all. It's just a game. I was just sharing something that's always nagged at me a bit in both WC3 and WC4. I'm a history nerd. I've read an entire bookcase full of books on World War II. I took a bunch of courses on it in college including one specifically on Hitler and Nazi Germany. Reading extensively about the infrastructure of the Holocaust, the differences between concentration camps and extermination camps, the evolution from mass shootings of Holocaust victims to gas vans to ever larger gas chambers, that knowledge sticks with you. It just makes me personally uneasy about using Göring and Keitel specifically in WC3 because I know what they did. I know it's just a game, but it's not a feeling I can shake. I never bought Göring, and when I played as Germany, I always sent those two off by themselves to get slaughtered rather than use them. I wondered if I was the only one who was a bit bothered by it or if anyone else felt conflicted about those two or playing as 1939 or 1943 Germany in general.

Two of my grandfathers were fought in ww2 as well (both were awarded with Medal for Bravery, and one of them with Order of Glory 3rd class). If Nazi Germany could acomlish its goals, it is highly probable that my relatives were dead for the most part. andrei is right. In German there is a saying:Wer A sagt, muss auch B sagen (In for a penny, in for a pound). It is just a game, and many people (including Jewish people) play it for both sides (it is simply inevitable taking campaigns into account). But if we think that it is more than just a game, we should be logical and consequent. Göring and other Nazi leaders did not kill millions by themselves. Those, who executed the orders - are no less criminals. Crimes of Wehrmacht are well known. For example, Military deaths of USSR were 10,600,000, Civilian deaths due to military activity and crimes against humanity were 10,000,000, Civilian deaths due to
war related famine and disease were 6,000,000 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#USSR). Who killed all those 16 000 000 civilians? Göring? Keitel? All German generals were responsible in equal measure.

General Erich Hoepner (one of the 4 Commanders of PG) wrote in the marching orders for his troops on 2 May 1941:
"The war against Russia is a fundamental part of the German people’s struggle for existence. It is the old struggle of the Germans against the Slavs, the defence of European culture against the Muscovite, Asiatic deluge, the defence against Jewish Bolshevism. This struggle must aim to smash the Russia of today into rubble, and as a consequence it must be carried out with unprecedented harshness".
The vast majority of the generals transmitted the unhuman orders further down the line.
Only a very few, such as Field Marshal Fedor von Bock or Lieutenant-Colonel Henning von Tresckow, quietly instructed their officers to ignore the order to kill commissars and civilians as incompatible with international law or dangerous to discipline, or both.
Richard Evans "The third Reich at war"

Field Marshal Walter von Reichenau, an outright Nazi, set the tone for several of the highest-ranking commanders: “The soldier must have complete understanding for the necessity of the harsh but just atonement of Jewish subhumanity. This has the further goal of nipping in the bud rebellions in the rear of the Wehrmacht which, as experience shows, are always plotted by the Jews.”55 Hitler praised Reichenau’s proclamation and demanded its distribution to all frontline units in the East.56 Within a few weeks, the Nazi field marshal was imitated by Generals Erich von Manstein, Stülpnagel, and the commander of the seventeenth Army, Gen. Hermann Hoth.57 As for Field Marshal Wilhelm Ritter von Leeb, the commander of Army Group North, he did not believe that the Jewish question could be solved by mass executions: “It would most reliably be solved by sterilizing all males.”
Saul Friedlander "The Years of Extermination" bookfi.net/book/1303655

Yes, yes it is the same von Leeb we are talking about in WC4! And the same von Manstein!

About Generalplan Ost...
Did any German, even one single German, protest against this planned ruthlessness, this well-thought-out scheme to put millions of human beings to death by starvation? In all the memoranda concerning the German directives for the spoliation of Russia, there is no mention of anyone's objecting - as at least some of the generals did in regard to the Commissar Order. These plans were not merely wild and evil fantasies of distorted minds and souls of men such as Hitler, Goering, Himmler and Rosenberg. For weeks and months, it is evident from the records, hundreds of German officials toiled away at their desks in the cheerful light of the warm spring days, adding up figures and composing memoranda which coldly calculated the massacre of millions.
William L. Shirer
 THE RISE AND FALL OF THE THIRD REICH

The senior officers of the Wehrmacht flattered themselves that they represented a cultured nation, yet they readily acquiesced in the barbarities designed into the Barbarossa plan. These included the starvation of at least 30 million Russians, in order that their food supplies might be diverted to Germany, originally a conception of Nazi agriculture chief Herbert Backe. At a meeting held on 2 May 1941 to discuss the occupation of the Soviet Union, the army’s armament-planning secretariat recorded its commitment to a policy noteworthy even in the context of the Third Reich:
1 The war can only be continued, if the entire Wehrmacht is fed from Russia in the third year.
2 If we take what we need out of the country, there can be no doubt that many millions of people will die of starvation.
Barbarossa was therefore not merely a military operation, but also an economic programme expected to encompass the deaths of tens of millions of people, an objective which it partially attained.
Max Hastings "Inferno"

During the course of the war 57.5% of the Soviet POWs in German hands died – nearly 3 million soldiers (on the other hand, only 13,9% of German POWs died in USSR, and Soviet prisons are not a Paradise on earth, believe me. But death rate in Soviet camps was the same for Soviet prisoners as for POWs). The treatment of Soviet POWs was terrible (https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007183).
Many of those, who were not in Russia, were devoted Nazi as well. For example, "noble warrior" Rommel... Modern Scholarship debunks the "Rommel myth" nowadays (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rommel_myth). And all Wehrmacht Soldiers knew about the Holocaust and other war crimes (for example, www.spiegel.de/international/germany/rape-murder-and-genocide-nazi-war-crimes-as-described-by-german-soldiers-a-755385.html).

And these are effects ...

Reimbold: "In the first officers' prison camp where I was being kept here, there was a really stupid guy from Frankfurt , a young lieutenant, a young upstart. There were eight of us sitting around a table and talking about Russia . And he said: 'Oh, we caught this female spy who had been running around in the neighborhood. First we hit her in the *Auto Corrected* with a stick and then we beat her rear end with a bare bayonet. Then we *Auto corrected*ed her, and then we threw her outside and shot at her. When she was lying there on her back, we threw grenades at her. Every time one of them landed near her body, she screamed.' And just think, there were eight German officers sitting at that table with me, and they all broke out laughing. I couldn't stand it anymore, so I got up and said: Gentlemen, this is too much." (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/rape-murder-and-genocide-nazi-war-crimes-as-described-by-german-soldiers-a-755385-4.html)
Karl Fuchs, a tank gunner, exulted: “The war against these subhuman beings is almost over … We really let them have it! They are scoundrels, the mere scum of the earth—and they are no match for the German soldier.”
Another panzer gunner wrote to his father, a World War I veteran, in August 1941: “Everyone, even the last doubter, knows today that the battle against these sub-humans, who’ve been whipped into frenzy by the Jews, was not only necessary but came in the nick of time. Our Führer has saved Europe from certain chaos.”
Eighteen-year-old Henry Metelmann, a Hamburg locksmith turned tank driver, wrote later: “I accepted as natural that it was a German duty for the good of humanity to impose our way of life on lower races and nations who, probably because of their limited intelligence, would not quite understand what we were on about.”
Max Hastings "Inferno"

So if WC4 is a game, let's evaluate it as a game, if, on the other hand, we see something more behind it - then we should take all the consequenses...

Still, it is just a game. Consider it as some kind of war games played by generals. Even Zhukov played for Germany in those war games


For this reason, the controversy over an offensive versus a defensive strategy to meet the German threat was not finally resolved until a series of Kremlin conferences and war games held in late 1940 and early 1941. It was then, during the methodical examination of alternatives available to the Red Army and the playing out of various solutions to tactical problems on the map, that Zhukov came into his ascendancy. In Stalin's eyes, Zhukov had correctly foreseen the course of coming events, and from January 1941 on, this man's destiny and the fate of the Soviet Union were inextricably intertwined.
Fugate Bryan

Operation Barbarossa.

Strategy And Tactics On The Eastern Front, 1941


At this time in the Kremlin, Zhukov being in charge of the blue side, representing Germany, totally outplayed his opponents. His ambitious ability impressed Stalin and was promoted to Chief of General Staff (CGS).
Matthew Brzezinski


In his memoirs Zhukov reports that in this exercise he commanded the "Western" or "Blue" forces (the supposed invasion troops) and his opponent was Colonel General D. G. Pavlov, the commander of the "Eastern" or "Red" forces (the supposed Soviet troops). He noted that the "Blue" had 60 divisions, while the "Red" had 50 divisions. Zhukov in his memoirs describes the events of exercise as similar to actual events during the German invasion.[18]

As historian Bobylev reports in his article in "Military History Journal", the actual details of the exercises were reported differently in different memoirs of their participants.[19] He reported that there were two exercises, one on 2–6 January 1941 (for the North-West direction), another on 8–11 January 1941 (for the South-West direction).[19] In the first one "Western" forces attacked "Eastern" forces on 15 July, but "Eastern" forces counterattacked and by 1 August reached the original border.[19]

At that time (start of the exercise), "Eastern" forces had a numerical advantage (for example, 51 infantry division against 41, 8811 tanks against 3512), with the exception of anti-tank guns.[19] Bolylev describes how by the end of the exercise the "Eastern" forces did not manage to surround and destroy the "Western" forces, which, in their turn, threatened to surround the "Eastern" forces themselves.[19] The same historian reported that the second game was won by the "Easterners", meaning that on the whole, both games were won by the side commanded by Zhukov.[19]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Zhukov

I am the one who mentioned sending generals off to die because I so despise what their real-life versions did during the war. The two I mentioned were Göring and Keitel. I never missed them in conquests in WC3. I'm not suggesting my response here is super rational, but I simply hate those two men and don't like looking at their tiny pictures.

To all players from ET: GIB MONIES!!!

Yup throw me into that catagory too, espically in WC2