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Post by lopicko on Nov 16, 2017 18:40:13 GMT
Speaking about hybrids like Timoshenko and Graziani it is more about preferences. Most players would like to use the best one like Guderian. It is more expensive and longer way, but You have feeling that You are using the best possible option  Some players prefer to complete scenarios faster (without IAP and/or necessity to grind a lot) so they hire capable hybrids and they are OK. Sorry as the starter of the thread restarted his game to not waste medal, I stand firm to my stand on not spending too much medals on generals who you cannot use to end game and recommended him the shortest routes to get to end game generals. If I am doing something wrong I apologised. Messe will carry you to mid game and Leeb can carry you to the end of UN missions. Other options are great but IMO will waste Too much medals and delay progress. Good Night. |
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Post by andrei on Nov 16, 2017 19:10:27 GMT
Speaking about hybrids like Timoshenko and Graziani it is more about preferences. Most players would like to use the best one like Guderian. It is more expensive and longer way, but You have feeling that You are using the best possible option Some players prefer to complete scenarios faster (without IAP and/or necessity to grind a lot) so they hire capable hybrids and they are OK. Sorry as the starter of the thread restarted his game to not waste medal, I stand firm to my stand on not spending too much medals on generals who you cannot use to end game and recommended him the shortest routes to get to end game generals. If I am doing something wrong I apologised. Messe will carry you to mid game and Leeb can carry you to the end of UN missions. Other options are great but IMO will waste Too much medals and delay progress. Good Night. I do not have Modern Era update, but as I see according to my experience it is very difficult to earn enough medals fast enough to upgrade best generals (skills + ranks) without IAP generals or medals pack, so hybrids are good alternative to start earning medals from invasions earlier. Moreover these hybrids could be sold out anytime, so it not obligatory to upgrade them a lot. They are quite capable. |
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Post by stoic on Nov 17, 2017 3:32:15 GMT
Sorry as the starter of the thread restarted his game to not waste medal, I stand firm to my stand on not spending too much medals on generals who you cannot use to end game and recommended him the shortest routes to get to end game generals. If I am doing something wrong I apologised. Messe will carry you to mid game and Leeb can carry you to the end of UN missions. Other options are great but IMO will waste Too much medals and delay progress. Good Night. I do not have Modern Era update, but as I see according to my experience it is very difficult to earn enough medals fast enough to upgrade best generals (skills + ranks) without IAP generals or medals pack, so hybrids are good alternative to start earning medals from invasions earlier. Moreover these hybrids could be sold out anytime, so it not obligatory to upgrade them a lot. They are quite capable. Well, you are right, but you are speaking about .... Messe actually  1. Messe has 3 (potentially 4) Inf stars. Together with Rumor and CT he can be your Inf general for quite a long time. So he is about equal with Timoshenko in this respect. Yes, he has only Rumor lvl 1. But with one upgrade he can be even stronger than Timoshenko as Inf general 2. Messe can have potentially 3 Navy stars (first 3 stars are not very expensive to upgrade, btw). Together with Rumor he can be a decent Navy general. Timoshenko can't do that. 3. Timoshenko has one more star in Artillery, but again we have here Rumor vs. Terrain bonus, and, to be honest, both generals are not the best choice for Art invasions. Though I remember that Messe was capable to defeat easy ones. 4. None of them has endgame potential in my opinion (I'm sure you think the same). 5. Last but not least, Messe is hardly weaker than Timoshenko in their primary role as tank Commanders, because Camouflage is a bad skill for a tank general. 6. After completing all Europe missions with Messe (and selling him after that) you have enough funds to buy Guderian. There is no sense to apply this strategy in case of Timoshenko. He is too expensive for that. 7. Players can afford Messe after Introduction missions. He can earn medals from day one. 8. There are better generals than Timoshenko in price range 1500-2000. For example, would Timoshenko be your choice in this situation? 9. The most important thing that speaks in favour of Timoshenko so far is the fact, that Max Otto von Stierlitz used him successfully. Well, to be honest, it means only that Max Otto von Stierlitz is a good player nothing more than that. I used Messe quite successfully as well. Does this mean that Messe is great? 10. The difference in price is great though. For Timoshenko's price it is almost possible to buy Messe and Leeb together... 11. And what makes Timoshenko a hybrid? No navy stars, two art stars, two inf stars, one aviation star. Well, I can find many hybrids like this Plain fighting alone isn't enough for someone to be a hybrid, imo. I like to use hybrids myself, but not many of them are capable in WQ4 to be endgame generals. Probably only Graziani has the right potential. I seriously doubt that Timoshenko can be in anybody's final team. |
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Post by Mountbatten on Nov 17, 2017 3:46:47 GMT
I bought Leeb first and then Messe. Saving for Guderian was trivial after that as you can beat all of Europe and Pacific along with most Europe Hard missions with just those two. In fact, I think I earned 2,000 medals again right after getting Guderian.
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Post by lopicko on Nov 17, 2017 4:39:33 GMT
One of the main standout point for Timoshenko is his 6 stars in movemnet. However his skills do not complement each other very well.
He has 6 star in movement but also crowd tactics. In invasions, you would not want to be fighting alone as you would want to ultilise his crowd tactics,this applies in scenarios as well but then why the need for 6 star in movement? Especially when you are using in the early game, you units movement will be so limited.
If you are choosing Timoshenko over messe for the movement, without any output skills and blitzkreig he is most likely to get finished off by stronger enemy generals.
Yes I have to agree movement has a lot of use in certain situation or scenario. But if you move away from your main army to snipe off some infantry units with Timoshenko, what's the use of crowd tactics?
With 4 star on tanks, no blitzkreig he is not suitable to be a Lone Ranger either as he just do not have the output or the defense or the health to solo. He is more than likely to take a serious ton of damage and die if you choose to solo with him in scenario and invasion.
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Post by Leonid Govorov on Nov 17, 2017 5:08:02 GMT
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Post by best75 on Nov 17, 2017 5:10:28 GMT
My option is that i would not get Timoshenko. For his price I would save a little more to get Vatutin and for his price it's hard for me to justify buying him if he has no place in Ann endgame team.
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Post by andrei on Nov 17, 2017 6:46:46 GMT
stoic , I agree with Your arguments. But as I started one of my previous posts it is matter of preference Timoshenko is weaker? No doubt. Can somebody use him in the final lineup. I am sure. It is almost the same as using Montezuma in EW5 and not to save for Yi-Sun-Sin for instance.
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Post by stoic on Nov 17, 2017 6:57:43 GMT
stoic , I agree with Your arguments. But as I started one of my previous posts it is matter of preference Timoshenko is weaker? No doubt. Can somebody use him in the final lineup. I am sure. It is almost the same as using Montezuma in EW5 and not to save for Yi-Sun-Sin for instance. Another good thing in WC4 (unlike in EW5) that we can sell Messe, Timoshenko, even Guderian. Timoshenko is in Max Otto von Stierlitz 's future plans, so we can see whether or not Timoshenko is good enough for the final lineup |
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Post by Max Otto von Stierlitz on Nov 17, 2017 7:35:34 GMT
Timoeshenko is not a hybrid but universal gen. His plain fighting 3 gives him additional 15 damage, which is 1.5-3 stars for any unit type instead of ships.
As one wise man said, everyone satisfies himself as he wants. Timoshenko is still my main power, Konev is good too, but Timoshenko's composite damage is some 2-3 times more, sure, Konev's each damage point is more valuable as he shots to gens in most cases (currently on NATO 6/WTO 6) and by now I didn't have to play any conquest to get medals for any gen. I haven't cleared a single conquest just because they are too long especially when you have weak tech.
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Post by stoic on Nov 17, 2017 8:38:55 GMT
As one wise man said, everyone satisfies himself as he wants. It doesn't sound very "wise" in English But you're right actually. As I said, it is possible to use week or mediocre generals with some success. But we simply can't use our own experience as a proof in this case. I doubt that Timoshenko will do wonders for less experienced players. And we should always keep that in mind, imo... |
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Post by Max Otto von Stierlitz on Nov 17, 2017 9:31:36 GMT
As one wise man said, everyone satisfies himself as he wants. It doesn't sound very "wise" in English But you're right actually. As I said, it is possible to use week or mediocre generals with some success. But we simply can't use our own experience as a proof in this case. I doubt that Timoshenko will do wonders for less experienced players. And we should always keep that in mind, imo... Sure, in original language it sounds better, but anyway it's hard to dispute it, at least I haven't seen that anyone tried to persuade someone to do it another way Possibly you're right, Timoshenko needs quite creative approach and if you don't use his strengths properly, he may be not better than Messe. But he has potential to be one of the best tank gens. |
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Post by stoic on Nov 17, 2017 9:50:30 GMT
It doesn't sound very "wise" in English But you're right actually. As I said, it is possible to use week or mediocre generals with some success. But we simply can't use our own experience as a proof in this case. I doubt that Timoshenko will do wonders for less experienced players. And we should always keep that in mind, imo... Sure, in original language it sounds better, but anyway it's hard to dispute it, at least I haven't seen that anyone tried to persuade someone to do it another way Possibly you're right, Timoshenko needs quite creative approach and if you don't use his strengths properly, he may be not better than Messe. But he has potential to be one of the best tank gens. Well, I see it everyday, - that someone tries to to persuade another someone My guess, that you doubt that results of this process can be fruitful  I don't know whether or not Timoshenko has the necessary potential, but so far at least 2 things are clear enough to me: 1. It is possible to use only 6 generals in Modern war missions. 2. It is very difficult to use more than 3 tank generals in those missions. If both propositions are true, - it is very difficult for me to see Timoshenko in my lineup... |
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Post by Max Otto von Stierlitz on Nov 17, 2017 13:55:22 GMT
Sure, in original language it sounds better, but anyway it's hard to dispute it, at least I haven't seen that anyone tried to persuade someone to do it another way Possibly you're right, Timoshenko needs quite creative approach and if you don't use his strengths properly, he may be not better than Messe. But he has potential to be one of the best tank gens. Well, I see it everyday, - that someone tries to to persuade another someone My guess, that you doubt that results of this process can be fruitful I don't know whether or not Timoshenko has the necessary potential, but so far at least 2 things are clear enough to me: 1. It is possible to use only 6 generals in Modern war missions. 2. It is very difficult to use more than 3 tank generals in those missions. If both propositions are true, - it is very difficult for me to see Timoshenko in my lineup... You have seen anyone to persuade someone to satisfy himself in some kind of way? That have to be be very interesting to see... Yes, if you have to choose 3 fully upgraded tank gens Timoshenko will not be there. But that's in scenarios. There are also conquests, where you can use 8 gens and likely most of them will be tanks. |
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Post by odm on Nov 17, 2017 13:55:44 GMT
...I would like to point at a comparison between WC4 Timo. and Crerar in WC3. Both don't have great stars, but both features good level plain fighting. The difference here is that Crerar is really cheap, while Timo is not. Also we can get plain fighting ( which I assume most will) on every general with a free slot for less than 500 medals. That being said, there are really good alternatives.
Leeb can get just as good on tanks as Timo. by investing in plain, which most will do since it helps with artillery too.. it ends up cheaper than Timo. with artillery capability but lower rank and movement
Same holds true for Bock, a decent tank commender.
IMO , Timoshenko has only three strong points.
1.Rank... true, it costs a lot to upgrade but nobody has ever complained about Guderian's low rank. Starting with 120% doesn't mean you can't get 205%.
2.Plain fighting. Good skill, but you can get lv 3 for 100+160+210=470 if I remember correctly.
3.Movement... not that useful, the units are already pretty fast. No use of being a fast demon that can't bite.
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