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Post by Der Kaiserreich on Nov 28, 2017 14:02:01 GMT
Diplomacy. A game of alliances and rivals, loyalty and betrayal, conquest and defeat. You know what else is also filled with these stuff? Game of Thrones/ Song of Ice and Fire! So, a while ago, I thought, "Why not host a Diplomacy game based in Westeros?" Which results in this; me hosting a Dip game for the first time!  This is the map we will be using. This variant, set shorty before Robert's Rebellion, has a maximum of nine players; each starting with one SC and one unit (army/navy) Starks - Winterfell - Army Tullys - Riverrun - Army Arryns - The Eyrie - Army Greyjoys - Pyke - Navy Lannisters - Casterly Rock - Army Targaryens - Dragonstone - Navy Baratheons - Storm's End - Army Tyrells - Highgarden - Army Martels - Sunspear - Army Other than that, all other stuff are the same as the normal Dip games ( european-war-4.boards.net/thread/2686/wanted-explain-diplomacy-moves by Desophaeus ) This will start whenever we want it, preferably after the WW1 RP and each turn (year) will last 2 RL days. Anything I missed out? Do tell me! |
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Post by Tadamichi Kuribayashi on Nov 28, 2017 14:11:13 GMT
Ehh, not a Game of Thrones person.
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Post by Leonid Govorov on Nov 28, 2017 14:15:24 GMT
I always loved the Starks. Finally Desophaeus can play! |
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Post by Desophaeus on Nov 28, 2017 14:16:34 GMT
Interesting, Der Kaiserreich, quite interesting. The funny thing is that I was planning on hosting a Dippy game in a week or so. Hmm, have this been tested for balance? (I'm guessing this is why you had to resort to a single SC start for everyone). Which leads to the question of home centers, what's your rule on the home centers? Post-1st year gains? Or all centers are available for a build? |
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Post by Der Kaiserreich on Nov 28, 2017 14:23:01 GMT
Interesting, Der Kaiserreich , quite interesting. The funny thing is that I was planning on hosting a Dippy game in a week or so. Hmm, have this been tested for balance? (I'm guessing this is why you had to resort to a single SC start for everyone). Which leads to the question of home centers, what's your rule on the home centers? Post-1st year gains? Or all centers are available for a build? Well, I haven't played it myself, but others have and it seems fairly ok, hopefully better with single SC start. Home centers will be the first two or three SCs. |
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Post by Laurent de Gouvion St. Cyr on Nov 28, 2017 14:23:29 GMT
Are we using 1898 rules of this? We start with one SC (all houses start with three normally).
In other words, do the SCs we capture during a certain period of time become home SCs?
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Post by Der Kaiserreich on Nov 28, 2017 14:27:17 GMT
Are we using 1898 rules of this? We start with one SC (all houses start with three normally). In other words, do the SCs we capture during a certain period of time become home SCs? Read the above. But yes, the SCs captured before 282 A.C. (at 281 A.C.) are Home SCs. If you think we should have 3/4 home SCs instead, I will think about it. |
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Post by Wilhelm Ritter von Leeb on Nov 28, 2017 14:29:46 GMT
I like this
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Post by Laurent de Gouvion St. Cyr on Nov 28, 2017 14:34:46 GMT
Putting Martell and Greyjoy actually makes the game less balanced IMO. Former and the Iron Islands only have two SCs, and relatively far from any other possible neutral SC (Martell advance would meet the Reach and the Stormlands, both player-led. Greyjoy will have to face Lannister or Stark).
I'd say play the game as it was designed.
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Post by Der Kaiserreich on Nov 28, 2017 14:46:47 GMT
Putting Martell and Greyjoy actually makes the game less balanced IMO. Former and the Iron Islands only have two SCs, and relatively far from any other possible neutral SC (Martell advance would meet the Reach and the Stormlands, both player-led. Greyjoy will have to face Lannister or Stark). I'd say play the game as it was designed. Good point, and I have thought of that. In fact I tried looking for a map with three SCs at the Iron Islands and at Dorne but those were too messy. I hoped the start-with-one-SC would help. :/ |
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Post by Desophaeus on Nov 28, 2017 14:52:44 GMT
Let me do a bit of number crunching and permutations to see if it's reasonably balanced.
1 SC start can be quite variable in outcome.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2017 15:56:45 GMT
Can I be house Targaryen?
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Post by Der Kaiserreich on Nov 28, 2017 16:20:47 GMT
Can I be house Targaryen? I suppose. It's still a work in progress though and subject to change. |
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Post by Desophaeus on Nov 28, 2017 17:56:19 GMT
Putting Martell and Greyjoy actually makes the game less balanced IMO. Former and the Iron Islands only have two SCs, and relatively far from any other possible neutral SC (Martell advance would meet the Reach and the Stormlands, both player-led. Greyjoy will have to face Lannister or Stark). I'd say play the game as it was designed. Good point, and I have thought of that. In fact I tried looking for a map with three SCs at the Iron Islands and at Dorne but those were too messy. I hoped the start-with-one-SC would help. :/ and Laurent de Gouvion St. Cyr, instead of running countless permutations... I decided on using a basic criteria to determine the growth potential and then a basic criteria for determining the external dangers. Geography, really... I figured a comparative tally of how many SCs within the first 2 moves would give me a good basis to estimate which power has the best potential, etc.. Then to determine the external dangers (aka the other players), normally, I would compare the amount of % Enemy home centers / total of centers ratio within 3 spaces for a regular variant, but because this is a 1-sc start, so I'm simply counting how many initial enemy capitals are within reach of 3 spaces (and another tally at 4 spaces). I have a few suggestions on rebalancing. Will post within an hour or so. Add: this is where a good idea of how to compare a map's positions: www.variantbank.org/articles/designing_maps.htm |
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Post by Desophaeus on Nov 28, 2017 19:53:09 GMT
A quick visual outline of my recommendations for changes (NOTE: It is just a ROUGH and QUICK sketch)  Starks, Greyjoys & Arryns are too isolated, limited growth, but Tullys enjoys the LARGEST array of options for growth, so the following changes: ***A 3rd SC is added to the Iron Islands (easily drawn in), so to bolster the potential growth for Greyjoys ***Winterfell is removed, but a new starting SC is placed in The Neck. Stark still have the North as an option but increased access to the rich central riverlands and more pressure on Riverrun. ***Arryns moves from The Eyrie to Bloody Gate for similar reasons as the Starks ***The Twins are given sea access to The Bite to provide a bit more padding between Starks and Arryns. The starting places changes are intended to press on Riverrun, not each other. Next, Targaryens suffers from an equal dismal amount of growth potential but isn't isolated. Also, Martels suffers even more from their weak spot at the tip of a remote corner but still has fairly strong proximity to both Targaryens and Baratheons at once. ***Martels move from Sunspear to Dorne, this increase the distance from the Targaryens but decrease the distance to Tyrells (who enjoys the second largest selection of growth possibilities on the map). It does not affect the distance totals for Martels vs Baratheons though, still the same net distance. ***Arryns/Targaryens loses potential for the Gulftown SC, but Arryns gets the opportunity for The Vale of Arryn, and Targaryens still has the closest proximity to the two Essos centers, comparatively. I recommend the initial unit selection to remain the same. This can provide sufficient insulation for the Targaryens vis Baratheons & Arryns for the start. Next, Greyjoys and the Lannisters are too close to each other while everyone else has a wider selection of growth possibilities. ***Greyjoy move to Harlow from Pyke ***Lannisters move to Lannisport from Casterly Rock This should help those two powers (especially when adding the third Iron Island) have a shot to success at least. The Greyjoys will have a 3rd Iron Island SC to utilize and the Lannisters will have better access to the Reach hoard in addition to the riverlands hoard. The Tyrells will face increase in pressure from the Martels and the Lannisters but still have a comfortable hoard of centers to sit on. In short, Deso's suggestions are hopefully quite helpful in addressing the imbalances in the numbers for each power's ratings. The raw data for my calculations on the old map: The initial Capital is counted as a SC as well.
Winterfell position
# of neutrals within 2 sp. = 5 SCs
The Eyrie position
# of neutrals within 2 sp. = 5 SCs
Dragonstone position
# of neutrals within 2 sp. = 5 SCs
Storm's End position
# of neutrals within 2 sp. = 6 SCs
Sunspear position
# of neutrals within 2 sp. = 3 SCs
Highgarden position
# of neutrals within 2 sp. = 7 SCs
Casterly Rock position
# of neutrals within 2 sp. = 5 SCs
Riverrun position
# of neutrals within 2 sp. = 10 SCs
Pyke position
# of neutrals within 2 sp. = 6 SCs
Only counting the Capital to Captial distance, not including future home centers, how many different players are within range of danger
Winterfell position
# of dangerous players within 3 sp/4 sp. = 1 enemy/ 3 enemies
The Eyrie position
# of dangerous players within 3 sp/4 sp. = 2 enemies/ 3 enemies
Dragonstone position
# of dangerous players within 3 sp/4 sp. = 4 enemies/ 4 enemies
Storm's End position
# of dangerous players within 3 sp/4 sp. = 2 enemies/ 3 enemies
Sunspear position
# of dangerous players within 3 sp/4 sp. = 2 enemies/ 3 enemies
Highgarden position
# of dangerous players within 3 sp/4 sp. = 2 enemies/ 5 enemies
Casterly Rock position
# of dangerous players within 3 sp/4 sp. = 2
3 enemies/ 3 enemies
Riverrun position
# of dangerous players within 3 sp/4 sp. = 2 enemies/ 6 enemies (counting Pyke)
Pyke position
# of dangerous players within 3 sp/4 sp. = 2 enemies/ 4 enemies (counting Riverrun)
*TBH, the lack of coastal centers between Pyke and Riverrun makes a conflict unlikely, and given their opposite natural inclination for going naval or land-based as well.
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