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Post by Gerd von Rundstedt on Sept 30, 2021 13:19:51 GMT
He is referring to the Christian religion. No, I was not referring to Christian religion That is really the only trinitarian religion out there. Even Hinduism has 3 sperate gods rather than a trinity.
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Post by John Marston on Sept 30, 2021 13:21:08 GMT
No, I was not referring to Christian religion That is really the only trinitarian religion out there. Even Hinduism has 3 sperate gods rather than a trinity. And I don't think there are even a billion +, leave alone 2.4 billion Hindus.
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Sept 30, 2021 13:23:00 GMT
The universe was created by the supreme trinity (because a couple of books say so). A couple of books believed by 2.4 Billion people. Belief is not an edvidence.
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Sept 30, 2021 13:35:46 GMT
1. Well, it simply is based on old texts and visions and has no proof. 2. Even if there was god, what religion is right then? Like no offense, but I think it's as probable that after we die, we go to a marshmallow castle or heaven. Surely, if there is life after death, you can't just say that the Bible says so or something. Or then, maybe when we die, we go to Mordor or something. 3. Science is constantly deproving things from the Bible. For example, the Earth has been proven a globe, visible proof of adaptation, humans have been proved not to be the only thinking species etc. 4. There are some really good atheist theories on why religion exists. 5. Why is God such a cruel and irrational being? 6. Those who believe in a god or gods have never provided me a single good explanation on why a god or gods exist. 1. The same can be said of Herodotus's work, the plays of Aristophanes, the writings of Pliny the Elder, and even the Canterbury Tales. Just because it is based on old texts does not mean that it is completely wrong. 2. I really dislike when people pull this argument, just because people differ in belief about how something works does not mean that that thing does not exist. For an analogous idea, just because there is a sharp divide between the Liberal and Conservative Parties does not mean that there is no government. It is just that we see government differently (and of course, everyone else is wrong ). 4. Name some, and remember, if religion is a myth, then 93% of the world has been duped since the beginning of man to the age of discovery. 5. I assume you are talking about the problem of pain, why a "good" and "omnipotent" god would allow so much evil in the world, is that correct? 6. In terms of god existing, we need to find a reason for him to exist? Well, if you ask any non-heretical religious person of any of the Abrahamic Faiths, they will tell you that "There is no reason for him to exist. He has just always been there. He needs no reason to exist." And if you find that not enough, then I really cannot help you on this. 3. Ah, *rubs hands together* this is the fun part. I highly doubt that science disproves things from the Bible. I assume you think I am Christian? If so, you are right. On the first two, the Bible never states any of those things, I think you get them from verses like Psalm 75:3, where it speaks of pillars of the earth, clearly metaphorical in a book of songs. As for species adaptation, I assume you take them from the Genesis account of creation. But everyone knows that species adapt and have used that in breeding from the beginning of time (praise be to my farmers' history education!). There would have to be significant adaptation to get all the species we have today based on 2 of every kind of unclean animal on the Ark of Noah. I will also have to ask you to define thinking species, for there are a number of passages in the Bible that tell people not to be cruel to animals, such as Proverbs 12:10 and 27:23. 1. I am not stating that old books were necessarily wrong, but that they are not a reliable source of information. 2. I didn't really get your argument. I mean, how can you say your religion is better than another. 3. I'm sorry, but I haven't read the Bible that much, but here are few things christians have claimed: 1. Heliocentrism 2. The Earth being like only a few thousand years old. 3. There has been only one human species 4. Disease is a curse by God. 4. I think Karl Marx wasn't necessarily wrong when he said that religion is opium to the people and an invention to justify the poor their position. As Yuval Noah Harari said religion is a product of evolution, just like all culture. Religion is something that unites a society and society was the reason for Homo Sapiens to survive. 5. Yes and also why aren't all people sinless Christians, if God has so much power for example. 6. Oh, sorry, I wrote that point cometely wrong. I meant, no one has ever given me edvidence or explanation of a god.
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Post by Gerd von Rundstedt on Sept 30, 2021 14:34:59 GMT
1. The same can be said of Herodotus's work, the plays of Aristophanes, the writings of Pliny the Elder, and even the Canterbury Tales. Just because it is based on old texts does not mean that it is completely wrong. 2. I really dislike when people pull this argument, just because people differ in belief about how something works does not mean that that thing does not exist. For an analogous idea, just because there is a sharp divide between the Liberal and Conservative Parties does not mean that there is no government. It is just that we see government differently (and of course, everyone else is wrong ). 4. Name some, and remember, if religion is a myth, then 93% of the world has been duped since the beginning of man to the age of discovery. 5. I assume you are talking about the problem of pain, why a "good" and "omnipotent" god would allow so much evil in the world, is that correct? 6. In terms of god existing, we need to find a reason for him to exist? Well, if you ask any non-heretical religious person of any of the Abrahamic Faiths, they will tell you that "There is no reason for him to exist. He has just always been there. He needs no reason to exist." And if you find that not enough, then I really cannot help you on this. 3. Ah, *rubs hands together* this is the fun part. I highly doubt that science disproves things from the Bible. I assume you think I am Christian? If so, you are right. On the first two, the Bible never states any of those things, I think you get them from verses like Psalm 75:3, where it speaks of pillars of the earth, clearly metaphorical in a book of songs. As for species adaptation, I assume you take them from the Genesis account of creation. But everyone knows that species adapt and have used that in breeding from the beginning of time (praise be to my farmers' history education!). There would have to be significant adaptation to get all the species we have today based on 2 of every kind of unclean animal on the Ark of Noah. I will also have to ask you to define thinking species, for there are a number of passages in the Bible that tell people not to be cruel to animals, such as Proverbs 12:10 and 27:23. 1. I am not stating that old books were necessarily wrong, but that they are not a reliable source of information. 2. I didn't really get your argument. I mean, how can you say your religion is better than another. 3. I'm sorry, but I haven't read the Bible that much, but here are few things christians have claimed: 1. Heliocentrism 2. The Earth being like only a few thousand years old. 3. There has been only one human species 4. Disease is a curse by God. 4. I think Karl Marx wasn't necessarily wrong when he said that religion is opium to the people and an invention to justify the poor their position. As Yuval Noah Harari said religion is a product of evolution, just like all culture. Religion is something that unites a society and society was the reason for Homo Sapiens to survive. 5. Yes and also why aren't all people sinless Christians, if God has so much power for example. 6. Oh, sorry, I wrote that point cometely wrong. I meant, no one has ever given me edvidence or explanation of a god. 1. Okay, but no books are a completely reliable source of information. Of all ancient books, the Bible has the most manuscripts, dating from the oldest periods. I think it is fair to say that it is more accurate than , sy, Herodotus. 2. Yeah, I shouldn't have added that last bit, but the point is that that is irrelevant. We are arguing over the existence of God, not which one he is. 3a. The Bible never states that, the verse you may be thinking of is this: Ecclesiastes 1:5 and Isaiah 38:8. They are taken incredibly out of context. I think the Catholic Church was terrible to suppress this, but they did it not because the Bible said, but rather to maintain their own power. Remember, the masses were not allowed to read the Bible, so the Church could get away with saying anything. b. I personally believe that the Earth is but a few thousand years old, as does the majority of Islam, Protestant Christianity, Mormonism, Judaism, the Eastern Orthodox Church. I think that the scientific evidence is aplenty that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old.Here is a great article filled with trustworthy references. Admittedly, they spend their entire time looking for these, and cannot be called objective, but: www.icr.org/article/young-earth/c. Also believe that that is true. d. JESUS HIMSELF PUT ANY REST TO THIS IDEA! Read the story of the man born blind. 4. So you believe that it was made by the ruling class? In that case, we have a chicken and egg problem. Religion was made by a societal ruler to allow for a society to be built. 5. This is a complex question that I could write a full essay on, rather a full book, so I will give a very, very, condensed version. The God of the Christian Bible (for that is the one I know best) is completely good, and completely all powerful. But, he wanted humans to love him, and if there is no opportunity of hate, then there is no real love. Therefore, he allowed us to have free will, or the ability to make our own decisions. But the reason why he can't make us love him and give us the choice of actually loving him is that it is impossible. As C.S. Lewis wrote in "The Problem of Pain", "Putting the name of God in front of a logical impossibility, such as 'Can God make a Square with three sides?' does not make it any less nonsense. It is the same with, 'Can God give both free will and also not give free will?' It is still d***ed nonsense." 6. Then that's what I will try to do.
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Sept 30, 2021 14:53:32 GMT
1. I am not stating that old books were necessarily wrong, but that they are not a reliable source of information. 2. I didn't really get your argument. I mean, how can you say your religion is better than another. 3. I'm sorry, but I haven't read the Bible that much, but here are few things christians have claimed: 1. Heliocentrism 2. The Earth being like only a few thousand years old. 3. There has been only one human species 4. Disease is a curse by God. 4. I think Karl Marx wasn't necessarily wrong when he said that religion is opium to the people and an invention to justify the poor their position. As Yuval Noah Harari said religion is a product of evolution, just like all culture. Religion is something that unites a society and society was the reason for Homo Sapiens to survive. 5. Yes and also why aren't all people sinless Christians, if God has so much power for example. 6. Oh, sorry, I wrote that point cometely wrong. I meant, no one has ever given me edvidence or explanation of a god. 1. Okay, but no books are a completely reliable source of information. Of all ancient books, the Bible has the most manuscripts, dating from the oldest periods. I think it is fair to say that it is more accurate than , sy, Herodotus. 2. Yeah, I shouldn't have added that last bit, but the point is that that is irrelevant. We are arguing over the existence of God, not which one he is. 3a. The Bible never states that, the verse you may be thinking of is this: Ecclesiastes 1:5 and Isaiah 38:8. They are taken incredibly out of context. I think the Catholic Church was terrible to suppress this, but they did it not because the Bible said, but rather to maintain their own power. Remember, the masses were not allowed to read the Bible, so the Church could get away with saying anything. b. I personally believe that the Earth is but a few thousand years old, as does the majority of Islam, Protestant Christianity, Mormonism, Judaism, the Eastern Orthodox Church. I think that the scientific evidence is aplenty that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old.Here is a great article filled with trustworthy references. Admittedly, they spend their entire time looking for these, and cannot be called objective, but: www.icr.org/article/young-earth/c. Also believe that that is true. d. JESUS HIMSELF PUT ANY REST TO THIS IDEA! Read the story of the man born blind. 4. So you believe that it was made by the ruling class? In that case, we have a chicken and egg problem. Religion was made by a societal ruler to allow for a society to be built. 5. This is a complex question that I could write a full essay on, rather a full book, so I will give a very, very, condensed version. The God of the Christian Bible (for that is the one I know best) is completely good, and completely all powerful. But, he wanted humans to love him, and if there is no opportunity of hate, then there is no real love. Therefore, he allowed us to have free will, or the ability to make our own decisions. But the reason why he can't make us love him and give us the choice of actually loving him is that it is impossible. As C.S. Lewis wrote in "The Problem of Pain", "Putting the name of God in front of a logical impossibility, such as 'Can God make a Square with three sides?' does not make it any less nonsense. It is the same with, 'Can God give both free will and also not give free will?' It is still d***ed nonsense." 6. Then that's what I will try to do. 1. Regardless of other ancient books, you can't take Bible as a trustable reference. 3. There is alot of scientific edvidence on other human species and the earth being over 4 billion years old. The simplest is probably fossils. 4. I do not believe it was made by the ruling class, but it came to existence through evolution and need for society. In the 19th century it was used to benefit the ruling class for sure. 5. Okay, so then God is a super narcist who makes people suffer only for them to love himself? 6. Can you give one? I think the problems outweigh the pro-god arguments by a mile.
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Post by Gerd von Rundstedt on Sept 30, 2021 16:28:19 GMT
1. Okay, but no books are a completely reliable source of information. Of all ancient books, the Bible has the most manuscripts, dating from the oldest periods. I think it is fair to say that it is more accurate than , sy, Herodotus. 2. Yeah, I shouldn't have added that last bit, but the point is that that is irrelevant. We are arguing over the existence of God, not which one he is. 3a. The Bible never states that, the verse you may be thinking of is this: Ecclesiastes 1:5 and Isaiah 38:8. They are taken incredibly out of context. I think the Catholic Church was terrible to suppress this, but they did it not because the Bible said, but rather to maintain their own power. Remember, the masses were not allowed to read the Bible, so the Church could get away with saying anything. b. I personally believe that the Earth is but a few thousand years old, as does the majority of Islam, Protestant Christianity, Mormonism, Judaism, the Eastern Orthodox Church. I think that the scientific evidence is aplenty that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old.Here is a great article filled with trustworthy references. Admittedly, they spend their entire time looking for these, and cannot be called objective, but: www.icr.org/article/young-earth/c. Also believe that that is true. d. JESUS HIMSELF PUT ANY REST TO THIS IDEA! Read the story of the man born blind. 4. So you believe that it was made by the ruling class? In that case, we have a chicken and egg problem. Religion was made by a societal ruler to allow for a society to be built. 5. This is a complex question that I could write a full essay on, rather a full book, so I will give a very, very, condensed version. The God of the Christian Bible (for that is the one I know best) is completely good, and completely all powerful. But, he wanted humans to love him, and if there is no opportunity of hate, then there is no real love. Therefore, he allowed us to have free will, or the ability to make our own decisions. But the reason why he can't make us love him and give us the choice of actually loving him is that it is impossible. As C.S. Lewis wrote in "The Problem of Pain", "Putting the name of God in front of a logical impossibility, such as 'Can God make a Square with three sides?' does not make it any less nonsense. It is the same with, 'Can God give both free will and also not give free will?' It is still d***ed nonsense." 6. Then that's what I will try to do. 1. Regardless of other ancient books, you can't take Bible as a trustable reference. 3. There is alot of scientific edvidence on other human species and the earth being over 4 billion years old. The simplest is probably fossils. 4. I do not believe it was made by the ruling class, but it came to existence through evolution and need for society. In the 19th century it was used to benefit the ruling class for sure. 5. Okay, so then God is a super narcist who makes people suffer only for them to love himself? 6. Can you give one? I think the problems outweigh the pro-god arguments by a mile. 1. You can if it is divinely inspired. 3. Humor me as if I never heard this evidence. 4. So you believe that religion exists because it was the only way for early man to form societies? Or what? 5. For lack of a better analogy, is a man with a leash evil because his dog wants to be free and he is restraining it, purely because he wants to spend time with the dog and knows that if the dog escapes it will be far worse off. Would you prefer to be forced to love this all-powerful deity? Or, on the coverse side, would it make sense or be just for him to allow people to spurn him, while he literally keeps every atonm in that human together, while he makes sure that they have everything they could possibly want, and go unpunsihed? That is one of te worst forms of betrayal possible from a purely worldly sense. 6. Well, for one there is the issue that morality cannot truly exist without a God.
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Sept 30, 2021 17:16:14 GMT
1. Regardless of other ancient books, you can't take Bible as a trustable reference. 3. There is alot of scientific edvidence on other human species and the earth being over 4 billion years old. The simplest is probably fossils. 4. I do not believe it was made by the ruling class, but it came to existence through evolution and need for society. In the 19th century it was used to benefit the ruling class for sure. 5. Okay, so then God is a super narcist who makes people suffer only for them to love himself? 6. Can you give one? I think the problems outweigh the pro-god arguments by a mile. 1. You can if it is divinely inspired. 3. Humor me as if I never heard this evidence. 4. So you believe that religion exists because it was the only way for early man to form societies? Or what? 5. For lack of a better analogy, is a man with a leash evil because his dog wants to be free and he is restraining it, purely because he wants to spend time with the dog and knows that if the dog escapes it will be far worse off. Would you prefer to be forced to love this all-powerful deity? Or, on the coverse side, would it make sense or be just for him to allow people to spurn him, while he literally keeps every atonm in that human together, while he makes sure that they have everything they could possibly want, and go unpunsihed? That is one of te worst forms of betrayal possible from a purely worldly sense. 6. Well, for one there is the issue that morality cannot truly exist without a God. 1. Many things are divinely inspired, but not true. 3. I don't. What do you think about fossils? 4. There is no only way in evolution. It exists to form societies, just like all culture. 5. If God exists, they could just show up to everyone and end all pain and suffering. They wouldn't need to force anyone to love themself. 6. I really hoped you wouldn't bring up that argument. It's really offensive. But what do you even mean? Moral is a person's belief on what is right and what is wrong, you don't need a god for that. Also, a counter argument I can say here is that Christian morale and ethics are really controversial. For example denial of gender diversity, women's unequality, harsh punishment (hell, death etc.), unequality in society and in general etc.
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Post by Gerd von Rundstedt on Sept 30, 2021 18:31:57 GMT
6. I meant that without a religion, there is no morals with anything behind them. Without a religion, there is nothing with which to give morality. Without that, there is only the individual to decide what is right and what is wrong. As for Christian morals, I don't understand what you mean.
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Sept 30, 2021 19:18:52 GMT
6. I meant that without a religion, there is no morals with anything behind them. Without a religion, there is nothing with which to give morality. Without that, there is only the individual to decide what is right and what is wrong. As for Christian morals, I don't understand what you mean. Yeah, fair enough. But I don't think there has to be anything behind moral. Also, it is not a matter of only yourself, but also the enviroment, culture and society, of which religion is a part too. Also, I don't believe in an objective moral. And as for Christian values, I don't mean that all Christians follow them, but they are heavily related to Christianity.
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Post by zink on Sept 30, 2021 19:59:05 GMT
The universe was created by the supreme trinity (because a couple of books say so). A couple of books believed by 2.4 Billion people. mans was really like "cuz most people said so"
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Post by 曹操 on Sept 30, 2021 23:46:48 GMT
Things suddenly heated up from talking physiological effect and sort of that thing into Atheist vs Theologist -_- Altho for me myself who are Catholic, i kinda disagree if Earth is just Thousand years. Because if Earth is just thousand of years how could we find those Bones and Skeleton of some animal and Plant ancestor. Evolution can't occur within just thousand years. And Adaptation, every living creatures takes thousand or even million of years to adapt in their environment. Besides the bible also doesn't tell us about those big animal either in the past where scientifically we have found their remains. But at the pros side there is some history lesson you can take from it. P.S: if i'm not mistaken it's stated 6.000/10.000 years old
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Post by John Marston on Oct 1, 2021 12:51:09 GMT
1. You can if it is divinely inspired. 3. Humor me as if I never heard this evidence. 4. So you believe that religion exists because it was the only way for early man to form societies? Or what? 5. For lack of a better analogy, is a man with a leash evil because his dog wants to be free and he is restraining it, purely because he wants to spend time with the dog and knows that if the dog escapes it will be far worse off. Would you prefer to be forced to love this all-powerful deity? Or, on the coverse side, would it make sense or be just for him to allow people to spurn him, while he literally keeps every atonm in that human together, while he makes sure that they have everything they could possibly want, and go unpunsihed? That is one of te worst forms of betrayal possible from a purely worldly sense. 6. Well, for one there is the issue that morality cannot truly exist without a God. 6. God does not exists. Proof- I have not seen him Now that's actually a good argument. Personally, I don't really believe that god exists, neither I believe that he do exists. Kind of 'neutral' here.
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Oct 1, 2021 12:58:44 GMT
6. God does not exists. Proof- I have not seen him Now that's actually a good argument. Personally, I don't really believe that god exists, neither I believe that he do exists. Kind of 'neutral' here. Kind of same. Although I would identify myself as a negative atheist rather than an agnostic.
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Post by Gerd von Rundstedt on Oct 1, 2021 13:54:38 GMT
1. You can if it is divinely inspired. 3. Humor me as if I never heard this evidence. 4. So you believe that religion exists because it was the only way for early man to form societies? Or what? 5. For lack of a better analogy, is a man with a leash evil because his dog wants to be free and he is restraining it, purely because he wants to spend time with the dog and knows that if the dog escapes it will be far worse off. Would you prefer to be forced to love this all-powerful deity? Or, on the coverse side, would it make sense or be just for him to allow people to spurn him, while he literally keeps every atonm in that human together, while he makes sure that they have everything they could possibly want, and go unpunsihed? That is one of te worst forms of betrayal possible from a purely worldly sense. 6. Well, for one there is the issue that morality cannot truly exist without a God. 6. God does not exists. Proof- I have not seen him 7. Borees does not exist. Proof - I have not seen him.
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