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Post by Leonid Govorov on Oct 25, 2017 7:24:03 GMT
Yes, the incrrased damage POINTS may be different, but buff in percentage stayes the same. True. But these percents will anyway provide You with with one of the best boost You can find. No any other skill can give You more exept armor assault. So the skill is still very good. The shock of the low percentage still is in me. I thought it was 50%! But this proves that leader skills are in no match with armourassult. Anyways from this, I would choose blitzkrieg over leader. |
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Post by soonerjbd on Oct 25, 2017 7:26:18 GMT
Anyway, in case Leader skill is around 15-20% then assault/accuracy/raider skills are more valuable than leader skills. It was an important experiment. Means I will take accuracy instead of leader for Govorov for example as he has just one free slot. I think we are missing something. If the numbers are true than Panzer Leader is a objectively far weaker skill than assault like you said. It would be a stupid design decision and I don't think easytech would make such a design decision. soonerjbd You said good things about the leader skill in the past, maybe you can give us your insight. Yeah, something seems off here. Just yesterday I did some testing with Yamashita in a Polish Commando. Without Infantry Leader triggering, my damage was right around 200 per hit. With Infantry Leader triggering, it was 327-373. That is a boost of 60-80 percent. Screenshots attached. I am going to do more testing with big damage tank, fully upgraded general with medal boosts and max tech. I see damage numbers routinely go up by much more than that. .org/image/8p3gwrbcgb/]  [/url] .org/image/1pf7ev14rv/]  [/url] .org/image/6xai1uuk5n/]  [/url] .org/image/96tilcenh7/]  [/url] .org/image/9hgcehst1n/]  [/url] .org/image/2zi4l6jbsr/]  [/url] |
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Post by stoic on Oct 25, 2017 7:26:41 GMT
I agree...
All skills based on percentage increase are so far very good in WC4. Even if PL can give only 20% more, it is a significant bonus nevertheless.
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Post by Leonid Govorov on Oct 25, 2017 7:27:05 GMT
As many seemed to be intrested on the leader skill, I will try the same thing, except this time I will go with konev.
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Post by andrei on Oct 25, 2017 7:27:17 GMT
True. But these percents will anyway provide You with with one of the best boost You can find. No any other skill can give You more exept armor assault. So the skill is still very good. The shock of the low percentage still is in me. I thought it was 50%! But this proves that leader skills are in no match with armourassult. Anyways from this, I would choose blitzkrieg over leader. It depends on Your play style. I agree that very often tactical skills can be much more important than raw damage. But percentage boost is always better imo. |
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Post by Leonid Govorov on Oct 25, 2017 7:29:10 GMT
I think we are missing something. If the numbers are true than Panzer Leader is a objectively far weaker skill than assault like you said. It would be a stupid design decision and I don't think easytech would make such a design decision. soonerjbd You said good things about the leader skill in the past, maybe you can give us your insight. Yeah, something seems off here. Just yesterday I did some testing with Yamashita in a Polish Commando. Without Infantry Leader triggering, my damage was right around 200 per hit. With Infantry Leader triggering, it was 327-373. That is a boost of 60-80 percent. Screenshots attached. I am going to do more testing with big damage tank, fully upgraded general with medal boosts and max tech. I see damage numbers routinely go up by much more than that. Well, maybe things are different when it comes to infantry. Anyways for tank, the results are clear. |
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Post by Leonid Govorov on Oct 25, 2017 7:31:09 GMT
It depends on Your play style. I agree that very often tactical skills can be much more important than raw damage. But percentage boost is always better imo. Well, it seems like you care about more about output then survivability. Nothing wrong with that, of course. But as far as I know, biltzkrieg is the ONLY good skill that buffs survivability. |
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Post by soonerjbd on Oct 25, 2017 7:35:37 GMT
Yeah, something seems off here. Just yesterday I did some testing with Yamashita in a Polish Commando. Without Infantry Leader triggering, my damage was right around 200 per hit. With Infantry Leader triggering, it was 327-373. That is a boost of 60-80 percent. Screenshots attached. I am going to do more testing with big damage tank, fully upgraded general with medal boosts and max tech. I see damage numbers routinely go up by much more than that. Well, maybe things are different when it comes to infantry. Anyways for tank, the results are clear. Your results were clear with vanilla Guderian. The numbers I have seen with my tanks are much higher. I will do some testing, but I think there is a lot more going on here and tech and other damage abilities play a large role. Give me a few minutes to do some testing. |
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Post by best75 on Oct 25, 2017 7:37:21 GMT
Leonid Govorov, You are basing your result from one experiment and I have certainly seen higher increases from panzer leader than 15%-16% so I would not say the results are clear. Leader skills are in the same series of skills and I see no reason why the skill would work different from infantry leader. At the very least more testing under different situations need to be done.
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Post by Leonid Govorov on Oct 25, 2017 7:41:22 GMT
Leonid Govorov , You are basing your result from one experiment and I have certainly seen higher increases from panzer leader than 15%-16% so I would not say the results are clear. Leader skills are in the same series of skills and I see no reason why the skill would work different from infantry leader. At the very least more testing under different situations need to be done. Yes, I will do more testing. But not today, I am sick of doing the same thing over and over again. Let's see soonerjbd's results first so we can determicanwhat is right and what is wrong. Btw, I fired Guderian like 75 times so the results should be pretty accurate. |
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Post by soonerjbd on Oct 25, 2017 7:48:40 GMT
Just some very quick testing. Fully upgraded Manstein in a super tank with max tech. Base hits without Panzer Leader: 164, 165, 173 Hits with Panzer Leader: 251, 287, 290 That is an increase of 60-80 percent. Screenshots below. .org/image/3cc2mzr76z/]  [/url] .org/image/25sredsv3f/]  [/url] .org/image/1ypjiyfxgb/]  [/url] .org/image/5ervb1rxe3/]  [/url] .org/image/7ruhs905yj/]  [/url] .org/image/89kjgu2eej/]  [/url] |
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Post by Leonid Govorov on Oct 25, 2017 7:53:01 GMT
soonerjbd, that is weird. Maybe it's tech like other people say, maybe it's bad luck. I will experiment them more tommorrow. I swear, it wasn't like that...
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Post by soonerjbd on Oct 25, 2017 7:54:21 GMT
There is clearly more going on here. I don’t doubt leonid Govorov or his testing results. But clearly the bonus damage you get from upgraded tech and abilities plays a major role in increasing the bonus from the Leader abilities. |
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Post by soonerjbd on Oct 25, 2017 7:57:50 GMT
soonerjbd, that is weird. Maybe it's tech like other people say, maybe it's bad luck. I will experiment them more tommorrow. I swear, it wasn't like that... I don’t think it’s just luck. You tested a bunch, and the data was what it was. You could keep hitting that Polish unit with Guderian all day, and I think the numbers would be the same. This discrepancy has something to do with the complexity of the Leader abilities and how the boost damage. I don’t think it is a simple percentage damage boost. |
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Post by Leonid Govorov on Oct 25, 2017 8:02:51 GMT
soonerjbd , that is weird. Maybe it's tech like other people say, maybe it's bad luck. I will experiment them more tommorrow. I swear, it wasn't like that... I don’t think it’s just luck. You tested a bunch, and the data was what it was. You could keep hitting that Polish unit with Guderian all day, and I think the numbers would be the same. This discrepancy has something to do with the complexity of the Leader abilities and how the boost damage. I don’t think it is a simple percentage damage boost. I agree. The poor polish infantry units... Sacrificed for nothing. We could ask ET, showing this thread but it is unlikely they would respond. It seems to be a complex nature, and perhaps that is why ET used the term of critical strike. Well, maybe this experiment wasn't for nothing, it proved that leader skills have a complex nature. Jeez, I wish wangchengxy was here(the guy who made the output formula for EW4), maybe he'd know, but atm, there is nothing we can do except for keep experimenting. There must be some sort of algorithm into it, right? |
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