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Post by 𝘛𝘳𝘰𝘵𝘴𝘬𝘺 on Aug 25, 2021 14:49:00 GMT
I am not saying that it should had been an invasion necessarily, it could be a psychological defeat for Britain forcing her to come on negotiations table An invasion on Britain was never in sight nor serously planned. In 1939 estimated additional 2½ years of troopship-production would be necessary, so they cancelled all plannings in autum 39. Germany tried during the whole war many attempts to join forces with britain. They would be so happy if there were any negtiations. It was primary Churchill who wanted the military decission. But here, once again, german intelligence was so bad that they had a completly misrated reality. (In late 1944/45 estimated 90% of London were destroyed - in real not one V2 reached the city) The (uncrackable) daylie encryption-code of Enigma visible for the british for years. |
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Post by 𝘛𝘳𝘰𝘵𝘴𝘬𝘺 on Aug 25, 2021 14:53:07 GMT
I don't think so. Also stalingrad did fall. Stalingrad didn't fall, only most of it. But the germans were encircled in the city? |
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Post by Erich von Manstein on Aug 25, 2021 15:53:17 GMT
Moscow ruined Barbarossa but it didn't cause the German defeat right away; it turned the war from a Blitzkrieg attempt into a meat grinder which Germany would lose. The Soviets took the initiative from the Germen in Stalingrad, which means now Germany is really on its way to defeat. That's right germans were not 'defeated' at Moscow, but the outcome of WW2 was decided. There was abolutely no chance that germany could win, or even just keep their positions after 1941. The outcome was decided. Every other actions were in attempt to ignore the reality (Hitler: "The enemy is at its end") or to cover the backdraw. The battle for Stalingrad was already germans 'Plan B' ( Blau). It was planned after! the failure of Moscow, before unthinkable! At this time less than 10% of the initial german tanks were operative, Patriotic russian mouses destroyed more than 70% of the romanian armoured equippment. Germans still had no working supply for it's troops. And the germans had absolutely no Idea how potent the CCCP was. CCCP Production 1942: 3000 combat aircraft 4500 tanks 14000 heavy artillery 50000 grenade launchers + up to 15mio soilders reserve The sixth Army was sacrified at Stalingrad to cover the backdraw of the complete group A - to reduce losses. Stalingrad was primary a symbolic battle, the outcome of the whole war, already long clear at least after MoscowIf Stalingard fell and Germany controlled the Caucasian oil, then there could be a lot more uncertainty. Shifting control of a major oil supply can be decisive. |
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Aug 25, 2021 15:54:43 GMT
Stalingrad didn't fall, only most of it. But the germans were encircled in the city? Yeah, after Uranus they were. |
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Post by 𝘛𝘳𝘰𝘵𝘴𝘬𝘺 on Aug 25, 2021 22:54:01 GMT
That's right germans were not 'defeated' at Moscow, but the outcome of WW2 was decided. There was abolutely no chance that germany could win, or even just keep their positions after 1941. The outcome was decided. Every other actions were in attempt to ignore the reality (Hitler: "The enemy is at its end") or to cover the backdraw. The battle for Stalingrad was already germans 'Plan B' ( Blau). It was planned after! the failure of Moscow, before unthinkable! At this time less than 10% of the initial german tanks were operative, Patriotic russian mouses destroyed more than 70% of the romanian armoured equippment. Germans still had no working supply for it's troops. And the germans had absolutely no Idea how potent the CCCP was. CCCP Production 1942: 3000 combat aircraft 4500 tanks 14000 heavy artillery 50000 grenade launchers + up to 15mio soilders reserve The sixth Army was sacrified at Stalingrad to cover the backdraw of the complete group A - to reduce losses. Stalingrad was primary a symbolic battle, the outcome of the whole war, already long clear at least after MoscowIf Stalingard fell and Germany controlled the Caucasian oil, then there could be a lot more uncertainty. Shifting control of a major oil supply can be decisive. I see your point, and for sure logistic and access to ressources is a keystone for every military confrontation. But at this time even all the oil from the caucasus would not have changed anything. If the germans could transport it  The control of the Arabic OIL was the primary objective - without controlling the caucasus the arabic oil was out of reach for the germans. But up to the end of the war, germans had a bigger problem for pilots than for petrol. The german attack was without material (after autum/winter 41 already) against a very much stronger than ever expected 'victim', and they never arrived to supply their troops adequat (IE Goering promised 500T/day for Stalingrad, in real the avg was much less than 20% - on good days) a very Napoleonic fail. |
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Post by John Marston on Aug 26, 2021 2:46:40 GMT
I don't think so. Also stalingrad did fall. Stalingrad didn't fall, only most of it. I think what he meant to say was that the Soviets expected Stalingrad to fall and had most probably prepared for the aftermath |
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Post by Manfred von Richthofen on Aug 26, 2021 2:49:34 GMT
Stalingrad didn't fall, only most of it. I think what he meant to say was that the Soviets expected Stalingrad to fall and had most probably prepared for the aftermath It was also because of the winter that why the Germans lost the Battle of Stalingrad P.S. I'M DARTH VADER YAY! |
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Aug 26, 2021 4:45:50 GMT
If Stalingard fell and Germany controlled the Caucasian oil, then there could be a lot more uncertainty. Shifting control of a major oil supply can be decisive. I see your point, and for sure logistic and access to ressources is a keystone for every military confrontation. But at this time even all the oil from the caucasus would not have changed anything. If the germans could transport it The control of the Arabic OIL was the primary objective - without controlling the caucasus the arabic oil was out of reach for the germans. But up to the end of the war, germans had a bigger problem for pilots than for petrol. The german attack was without material (after autum/winter 41 already) against a very much stronger than ever expected 'victim', and they never arrived to supply their troops adequat (IE Goering promised 500T/day for Stalingrad, in real the avg was much less than 20% - on good days) a very Napoleonic fail. Okay now I've changed my mind again because of 𝘛𝘳𝘰𝘵𝘴𝘬𝘺. Because even if the Germans could have won the war in Stalingrad, they could have done so in Moscow as well. As 𝘛𝘳𝘰𝘵𝘴𝘬𝘺 said after the loss in Moscow the Soviets material advantage became too big. |
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Aug 26, 2021 4:48:58 GMT
I came up with another solution for this. Actually the most decisive battle was Battle of Kiev because it stalled the attack on Moscow, giving the Soviets time to prepare a defence and let the winter come.
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Post by Manfred von Richthofen on Aug 26, 2021 4:51:05 GMT
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Aug 26, 2021 4:52:45 GMT
I know but the rules also say that it is acceptable occasionally. The rules also say that short posts with one or two words are not allowed, so then the history and geography game aren't allowed. |
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Post by Manfred von Richthofen on Aug 26, 2021 4:56:28 GMT
I know but the rules also say that it is acceptable occasionally. The rules also say that short posts with one or two words are not allowed, so then the history and geography game aren't allowed. But then why Saltin isn't banning it? |
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Post by Kliment Jefremovitš Vorošilov on Aug 26, 2021 4:58:53 GMT
I know but the rules also say that it is acceptable occasionally. The rules also say that short posts with one or two words are not allowed, so then the history and geography game aren't allowed. But then why Saltin isn't banning it? Because I don't think it's bad if it's not spamming. So what I think that rule would apply to, would be like doing nonsense unrelated short posts. |
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Post by 𝘛𝘳𝘰𝘵𝘴𝘬𝘺 on Aug 26, 2021 5:34:20 GMT
But then why Saltin isn't banning it? Because I don't think it's bad if it's not spamming. So what I think that rule would apply to, would be like doing nonsense unrelated short posts. Exactly. If you have something new, additional to post, you can post it. Spam is the annoying repeating, regardless if intelligent or not. And the games have other rules anyway. Single word postings are only allowed there. |
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Post by John Marston on Aug 27, 2021 3:13:52 GMT
I came up with another solution for this. Actually the most decisive battle was Battle of Kiev because it stalled the attack on Moscow, giving the Soviets time to prepare a defence and let the winter come. If the Axis could advance, like maybe some 30 (?) km then they could've captured Moscow. I don't think it was decisive. It did stopped them, but albeit, in the last minute. So I think Battle of Moscow is itself decisive. |
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