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Post by Dannes on Dec 8, 2023 23:18:36 GMT
Out of all ET games EW6 1914 Challenge conquests were probably close to be perfectly balanced. But, in fact, I am liking GCS conquests more and more actually. Avoiding direct fighting with powerful enemy generals and cutting off their lines of communications is a rather historically accurate approach to Sengoku period, when decisive pitched battles were relatively few in numbers. One of the few examples, the battle of Nagashino, namely, was initially a siege and then could be easily avoided if Takeda made a decision to withdraw. So, I don't have problems with that. My single complaint is that AI's turns can't be accelerated. It just takes too much time. oh god yes the slow turns I swear to god, it also makes Vassalage useless as they not only take your cities, they even take up turns lmao |
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Post by SolidLight on Dec 9, 2023 22:28:31 GMT
So I said prievously that you want to upgrade barns. You still want to, but I've figured another way to deal with food: Tank starvation penalties!  See, your soldiers eat food every turn, but you CAN'T go below 0 food. That means that you can actually save on food this way. Being at 0 food and -200 per turn means 200 food saved. This has another benefit in that your army will be larger and stronger, and having a larger and stronger army is how you win more efficiently. Moreover, the starvation penalties aren't THAT bad. Stage 1 is just -10 morale per turn, stage 2 is that plus a -2 movement penalty, stage 3 is stage 2 plus a -10% HP DoT. Stage 2 and 3 are pretty bad, but I've never been at stage 3 even with like -400 per turn. And stage 2 isn't so catastrophic if it's only one or two turns. As with every other resource managing tactic though. You shouldn't rely on this indefinetly, because at 0 morale you get immobilized and take double damage in addition to all the other penalties and that's going to destroy you. Also, you'll have to buy food sometimes to ashigaru wall. Because you save food by starving this can still be a net benefit if you only have to buy food a couple times for that, but you can't be ashigaru walling too much if you're doing this. So eventually you should shift to being at a positive food surplus forever. The food upkeep reduction is a good point to do that. This means that upgrading markets and mines can also be worthwhile, since barns should be upgraded later. |
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Post by Airi Momoi on Dec 9, 2023 23:14:47 GMT
Personally I think that barns are probably the lowest on your priority list out of everything, after upgrading cities, markets, and mines for the coins, and colleges enough to get the ~+60 surplus of knowledge points for your best general to serve as Karo. Coins are precious since they are what is used to subjugate enemies and ally daimyos to make it so you don't have to fight them, and Karo is definitely the most important vassal for the +5 neighbor bonus that mostly cancels out the -6 border penalty. But the only time I had a real problem with food management was with my first Oda run where I didn't have Oichi, I didn't prioritize Karo, and I got dog piled by Imagawa, Matsudaira, Saito, Rokkaku, and Honganji. Usually when you go negative you'd have a decent surplus from your starting bank + tasks which can give rice, so you'd never really have to tank starvation penalties since you'd either be positive, or be negative slightly before you expand into your enemies (as long as you're not fighting six different people at once). Coins are definitely the most important resource for me because I just pay everyone off and somehow I have the miserable luck of missing 70% subjugation chances, but I suppose by the time I get there the resource management part of the conquest is over. I'd say that the resource prioritization is coins->knowledge points (until you have enough of a surplus to be able to run Karo indefinitely)->food->knowledge points (once you have a large enough surplus)->tactical points. Maybe I'm not optimizing enough, but it's been working well enough for me.
Oh, and to add on to this, coins can be converted into food if you're really desperate. The conversion rate is actually pretty good which only adds to the reasoning that prioritizing coin generation is better than food generation.
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Post by SolidLight on Dec 10, 2023 0:22:24 GMT
Personally I think that barns are probably the lowest on your priority list out of everything, after upgrading cities, markets, and mines for the coins, and colleges enough to get the ~+60 surplus of knowledge points for your best general to serve as Karo. Coins are precious since they are what is used to subjugate enemies and ally daimyos to make it so you don't have to fight them, and Karo is definitely the most important vassal for the +5 neighbor bonus that mostly cancels out the -6 border penalty. But the only time I had a real problem with food management was with my first Oda run where I didn't have Oichi, I didn't prioritize Karo, and I got dog piled by Imagawa, Matsudaira, Saito, Rokkaku, and Honganji. Usually when you go negative you'd have a decent surplus from your starting bank + tasks which can give rice, so you'd never really have to tank starvation penalties since you'd either be positive, or be negative slightly before you expand into your enemies (as long as you're not fighting six different people at once). Coins are definitely the most important resource for me because I just pay everyone off and somehow I have the miserable luck of missing 70% subjugation chances, but I suppose by the time I get there the resource management part of the conquest is over. I'd say that the resource prioritization is coins->knowledge points (until you have enough of a surplus to be able to run Karo indefinitely)->food->knowledge points (once you have a large enough surplus)->tactical points. Maybe I'm not optimizing enough, but it's been working well enough for me.
Oh, and to add on to this, coins can be converted into food if you're really desperate. The conversion rate is actually pretty good which only adds to the reasoning that prioritizing coin generation is better than food generation.
So firstly, coin production has no effect on diplomatic moves like subjugation, agreements and gifting. The costs of those scale with your production, so for that those the costs are worth in turns worth of resources. And that’s why I can’t really agree with allying/subduing too many factions. That takes a ton of time. Subjugation is worth MORE than one turn worth of cash. Definetly not worth doing unless it’s near the end. Especially since you often need to just splinter a small force off to finish off a faction on deaths door. I don’t really value Karo as highly as other people for those reasons. It’s my second vassal that I deploy. It just seems more practical and cost-effective to kill off factions with some exceptions. And doing that efficiently requires a lot of food. And the ratio is like 1:2.16 or something on coins to food. 80 coins gives like ~180, so it takes about 13 or so turns for the barn to make a profit. So probably still better upgrade barns to try to minimize the amount of times you have to buy food. (Or you can make up for it by starving a lot). What you REALLY don’t want is to be forced to buy a lot of food every single turn. That can eat you alive. I did that on a Matsudaira run and that sucked a lot. |
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Post by Airi Momoi on Dec 10, 2023 1:38:38 GMT
So firstly, coin production has no effect on diplomatic moves like subjugation, agreements and gifting. The costs of those scale with your production, so for that those the costs are worth in turns worth of resources. And that’s why I can’t really agree with allying/subduing too many factions. That takes a ton of time. Subjugation is worth MORE than one turn worth of cash. Definetly not worth doing unless it’s near the end. Especially since you often need to just splinter a small force off to finish off a faction on deaths door. I don’t really value Karo as highly as other people for those reasons. It’s my second vassal that I deploy. It just seems more practical and cost-effective to kill off factions with some exceptions. And doing that efficiently requires a lot of food. And the ratio is like 1:2.16 or something on coins to food. 80 coins gives like ~180, so it takes about 13 or so turns for the barn to make a profit. So probably still better upgrade barns to try to minimize the amount of times you have to buy food. (Or you can make up for it by starving a lot). What you REALLY don’t want is to be forced to buy a lot of food every single turn. That can eat you alive. I did that on a Matsudaira run and that sucked a lot. Huh, you're absolutely right. For some reason I've always thought that it scaled by city control - perhaps it's because the scaling by economic income jumps a lot when you take a city - but I tested it with my current Matsudaira game where I checked my diplomacy, upgraded a mine and checked again. Lo and behold, suddenly they were all demanding a lot more for my goodwill. That definitely changes my calculus a bit. It does seem that the only benefit to subjugation is the fact that they can spam their generals on your side, but that's mitigated by the fact that often the faction is a one city minor who ends up starving themselves to oblivion, and the fact that most factions have not terribly good generals. It definitely is a lot easier (and better!) to just finish off factions. I still think Karo's better to prevent factions from declaring war quickly at you, but I can definitely see how Jinba Bugyo or even Kanjo Bugyo can be a valued vassal and a contender for the first one to deploy, and if I ever decide to attempt a speedrun, the mobility would probably be more favored for me. Of course, the whole idea behind trying to optimize is for conquests to take less time and therefore less painful, so perhaps choosing Jinba Bugyo to quickly defeat factions is the better choice. This does make starving penalties seem good enough to tank as ideally, morale shouldn't be much of a problem due to your units continuously capturing cities, at least, starving before you begin to lose your mobility. But even then, you should hopefully be able to feed your army beforehand before you get to that point - as you said.
And I'd probably still choose to ally people I'm too lazy to kill, like often Miyoshi in Battles in Owari where I just can't be bothered to navally invade Shikoku and Awaji, and the Shogun himself because the -10 relationship penalty to killing him is rather steep, essentially forcing you to either waste 10 turns and more waiting so people like you again, or conquer the whole map. Of course their personality doesn't help my case though, with Miyoshi having expansion keener making them automatically dislikes you once you border them, and the Shogun being arrogant which makes him difficult to befriend. It's such a shame that the factions easy to befriend/subjugate often are the ones easy to kill and not the most useful allies to have. I still pay them to get them on my side though, either out of misguided compassion or laziness.
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Post by SolidLight on Dec 10, 2023 5:28:52 GMT
So firstly, coin production has no effect on diplomatic moves like subjugation, agreements and gifting. The costs of those scale with your production, so for that those the costs are worth in turns worth of resources. And that’s why I can’t really agree with allying/subduing too many factions. That takes a ton of time. Subjugation is worth MORE than one turn worth of cash. Definetly not worth doing unless it’s near the end. Especially since you often need to just splinter a small force off to finish off a faction on deaths door. I don’t really value Karo as highly as other people for those reasons. It’s my second vassal that I deploy. It just seems more practical and cost-effective to kill off factions with some exceptions. And doing that efficiently requires a lot of food. And the ratio is like 1:2.16 or something on coins to food. 80 coins gives like ~180, so it takes about 13 or so turns for the barn to make a profit. So probably still better upgrade barns to try to minimize the amount of times you have to buy food. (Or you can make up for it by starving a lot). What you REALLY don’t want is to be forced to buy a lot of food every single turn. That can eat you alive. I did that on a Matsudaira run and that sucked a lot. Huh, you're absolutely right. For some reason I've always thought that it scaled by city control - perhaps it's because the scaling by economic income jumps a lot when you take a city - but I tested it with my current Matsudaira game where I checked my diplomacy, upgraded a mine and checked again. Lo and behold, suddenly they were all demanding a lot more for my goodwill. That definitely changes my calculus a bit. It does seem that the only benefit to subjugation is the fact that they can spam their generals on your side, but that's mitigated by the fact that often the faction is a one city minor who ends up starving themselves to oblivion, and the fact that most factions have not terribly good generals. It definitely is a lot easier (and better!) to just finish off factions. I still think Karo's better to prevent factions from declaring war quickly at you, but I can definitely see how Jinba Bugyo or even Kanjo Bugyo can be a valued vassal and a contender for the first one to deploy, and if I ever decide to attempt a speedrun, the mobility would probably be more favored for me. Of course, the whole idea behind trying to optimize is for conquests to take less time and therefore less painful, so perhaps choosing Jinba Bugyo to quickly defeat factions is the better choice. This does make starving penalties seem good enough to tank as ideally, morale shouldn't be much of a problem due to your units continuously capturing cities, at least, starving before you begin to lose your mobility. But even then, you should hopefully be able to feed your army beforehand before you get to that point - as you said.
And I'd probably still choose to ally people I'm too lazy to kill, like often Miyoshi in Battles in Owari where I just can't be bothered to navally invade Shikoku and Awaji, and the Shogun himself because the -10 relationship penalty to killing him is rather steep, essentially forcing you to either waste 10 turns and more waiting so people like you again, or conquer the whole map. Of course their personality doesn't help my case though, with Miyoshi having expansion keener making them automatically dislikes you once you border them, and the Shogun being arrogant which makes him difficult to befriend. It's such a shame that the factions easy to befriend/subjugate often are the ones easy to kill and not the most useful allies to have. I still pay them to get them on my side though, either out of misguided compassion or laziness.
Yeah some factions you’re usually totally better off just allying, and that takes some planning to do. I can see why you’d do Karo early on, especially if you’re on the western side of the map in Battles in Owari because dealing with Ashikaga and Miyoshi is a real pain in the rear. Ashikaga isn’t guaranteed to be arrogant like everyone with noble lineage. They just have a lot of prestige despite being very small for whatever reason, so they can still kinda be intimidated by being huge, but that’s really hard to do. But yeah keeping them alive and allying with them is important. |
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Post by SolidLight on Dec 10, 2023 8:41:00 GMT
Also, you can use prestige as a replacement for relation for most factions:   Imagawa being trade focused helps a lot here. I planned to not fight them and them wanting to sign a passage agreement at -81 is really amazing for me.  And here’s Ashikaga at 9. Putting in Karo and blobbing a bit more should do the trick. |
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Post by Nobunaga Oda on Dec 10, 2023 10:45:56 GMT
The special unit in the Conquest Battle Pass isn't too hard to get.
Here are my clears:
3* - 1
2* - 3
1* - 4
Of course, the average is about slightly less than 60 turns.
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Post by nikomachos on Dec 10, 2023 11:52:28 GMT
Note: If there is a war invitation for you and you choose to declare war on another clan outside of that invitation, the invitation will disappear. I'm fairly sure I didn't see my resources jump, so beware. Putting in a request for feedback from other players also. Tried this several times now. Never worked for me yet. So either you accidently clicked sth, there is more to it than meets the eye, or i am missing sth. |
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Post by Theron of Acragas on Dec 10, 2023 16:43:14 GMT
Note: If there is a war invitation for you and you choose to declare war on another clan outside of that invitation, the invitation will disappear. I'm fairly sure I didn't see my resources jump, so beware. Putting in a request for feedback from other players also. Tried this several times now. Never worked for me yet. So either you accidently clicked sth, there is more to it than meets the eye, or i am missing sth. I definitely saw invitations from two or three other clans disappear after I accepted one. I hadn't checked but I assumed it was because they all wanted me to declare war on the same clan. |
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Post by nikomachos on Dec 10, 2023 17:49:16 GMT
Putting in a request for feedback from other players also. Tried this several times now. Never worked for me yet. So either you accidently clicked sth, there is more to it than meets the eye, or i am missing sth. I definitely saw invitations from two or three other clans disappear after I accepted one. I hadn't checked but I assumed it was because they all wanted me to declare war on the same clan. ok thx that sounds very reasonable to avoid acceppting x times the rewards for a single war declaration, like in ew7 when lucky. I can only speculate that what Nobunaga reffered to would have been accidently declaring against the nation that invited and then the prompt disappearing? |
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Post by Nobunaga Oda on Dec 11, 2023 5:19:32 GMT
Iga sent me an invitation to go to war against the Rokkaku. Here, instead of accepting the offer via the invitation, I chose to trigger a war through an alternative way: stealing a Rokkaku city. After Rokkaku declared war, tapping on the invitation will cause it to disappear and there is no reward money given. The good thing is that you don't take the hit to your credit this way. The bad thing is you don't get rewarded if you choose not to declare war through the invitation. |
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Post by SolidLight on Dec 11, 2023 19:16:31 GMT
Last Matsudaira run got wiped out, so I need to do it again. I’m going to approach it a bit differently…  Bring it on!!😡 I’m gonna go against conventional wisdom and deliberately piss off Ashikaga and kill them. Seems worth it to me, though I’ll wait on finishing them off. I’m also using Matsu instead of Oichi for a more aggressive approach, but I’ll switch them later on. Rank 4 Oichi is just better than Matsu, but I don’t have that. |
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Post by Airi Momoi on Dec 11, 2023 19:40:18 GMT
Makes me wonder why all the other princesses are just objectively worse than Oichi, Renown is a pretty ehh hime ability at best, from what I read from the description Medic only applies to troop within your territory although that needs verifying, Garrison is a purely defensive ability which strengthens troops in castles, and Lobbyist is just a worse Diplomatic Adaptability. I guess you could use Lobbyist near the end of campaigns when you're gifting more to convince the last stubborn holdouts but it still just doesn't seem that good. I think Scholar is better than Renown but I don't have quantitative numbers on the flat +5/+10 bonus to tactical and knowledge points vs. the -10%/-15% tactics cost - does the discount actually make tactics feasible to rely more on?
Also it angers me that Garasha has Lobbyist instead of something like Diplomatic Adaptability, so that we can actually debate on whether we should appoint a Rank 4 Oichi or a Rank 4 Garasha. Lobbyist is just not a good hime ability.
And bear in mind that I'm saying all of this while Yoshihime remains elusive to me, I haven't played enough (and am not good enough at the game) to have earned her yet.
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Post by SolidLight on Dec 11, 2023 20:21:10 GMT
Yoshihime base skill gives +1 level to units you spawn and her rank 4 skill is Garrison, so basically worthless.
Scholar is better than Renown. No doubt about it. It gives knowledge, and I know for certain than I’ve had turns where I’ve spent all my knowledge. So Matsu has clearly made a difference there. And she’s probably better than Oichi for me in the early turns because I plan to just use prestige and make people sign passages with me at like -90 relation.
It is probably bad design that only those two princesses are worth anything though. It could have been kinda cool if some of them were good at fighting, like Lan in EW6.
The tactic mechanic just doesn’t have that much of an impact on your run because you get to use it so infrequently. I don’t quite know how tactic point income is calculated, but I know colleges increase it, and I usually get about 60 or so tactic points per turn around the midgame. Most of the good tactics costs around 800. That’s 14 turns or so between each time you can use them. Cutting that down to 12 or so is nowhere near as powerful as being able to squeeze out a general or two a turn earlier, especially in the early turns.
I’ll just note that my playstyle is geared around playing fast, but it doesn’t mean that it’s easy. You’re absolutely just better off using Oichi forever if you just want an easier time.
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