MatosPoljca
Captain
Did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?
Posts: 80
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Post by MatosPoljca on May 15, 2024 19:37:01 GMT
For EC's, the skills should be these: Ace Commander, Inspiring, Plain Fighting, Explosives, Tide of Iron (for tank) or Artillery Barrage (for artillery). No specific order, just upgrade them all equally (don't max one if others are lvl 1). For medals: Your Manstein and tank EC need expropriation perk (level 2 is the goal, maybe even 3 since you are p2w (pay to win)) which you get by having legion medal (lvl 3+) combined with assault medal. If you use up all legion medals or assault medals, give your other tank gens (Guderian, Katukov or something) tank+defence or tank+speed or even just 2*tank medals. Your artillery (Govorov and EC, and Eichel if you buy him with real money, potentially also Weidling or Sikorski) should have either group army (two combo medals) or fire suppression (arty medal + combo medal). For Govorov, since he is very slow, you can also have him with artillery+marching or, even better (but more expensive), combo+marching. For your air gens (Hartmann and Bittrich, or Spaatz if you buy him with real money), the best medal set is carpet bombing (air+assault), but if you want to save up assault medals, you can go with 2*air, it will work well enough untill you gather more assault medals. For navy, just navy+defence medal. You don't need infantry gen, so you won't need Herman Hoth either unfortunately. That was a bad buy. Keep all of your artillery and air generals on M General rank or bellow, because above M General rank they become targeted by nukes way more often. Keeping their health a bit lower will stop AI from targeting them with nukes a lot. Since you can use 8 gens in conquest, you might still want to get Guderian. He's just too good. Definitely make one EC tank, one EC artillery. Since you are p2w, you should build the third EC also, you can make him either tank, arty or even hybrid (instead of tide of iron, give him desperate skill, and both arty and tank stars, so he is completely flexible). After you finish 80-90% of two EC's, you can start leveling up your Ion Cannon. Go to level 16, and then pause for a while, because the next "worthwhile" level is 23, and that is REALLY expensive. I'd recommend leaving the phone on with autoclicker overnight to get medals from wonders (Pyramids, Cuzco and Terracotta). You could get about 600 medals per night with Manstein's perk. Also, buy Eifel Tower, Big Ben and the third one for mission time, because those reductions in time also work on wonders (meaning more medals when afk). That should be about it for now... If you got any questions feel free to ask 
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Post by Erich von Manstein on May 17, 2024 17:13:14 GMT
For EC's, the skills should be these: Ace Commander, Inspiring, Plain Fighting, Explosives, Tide of Iron (for tank) or Artillery Barrage (for artillery). No specific order, just upgrade them all equally (don't max one if others are lvl 1). For medals: Your Manstein and tank EC need expropriation perk (level 2 is the goal, maybe even 3 since you are p2w (pay to win)) which you get by having legion medal (lvl 3+) combined with assault medal. If you use up all legion medals or assault medals, give your other tank gens (Guderian, Katukov or something) tank+defence or tank+speed or even just 2*tank medals. Your artillery (Govorov and EC, and Eichel if you buy him with real money, potentially also Weidling or Sikorski) should have either group army (two combo medals) or fire suppression (arty medal + combo medal). For Govorov, since he is very slow, you can also have him with artillery+marching or, even better (but more expensive), combo+marching. For your air gens (Hartmann and Bittrich, or Spaatz if you buy him with real money), the best medal set is carpet bombing (air+assault), but if you want to save up assault medals, you can go with 2*air, it will work well enough untill you gather more assault medals. For navy, just navy+defence medal. You don't need infantry gen, so you won't need Herman Hoth either unfortunately. That was a bad buy. Keep all of your artillery and air generals on M General rank or bellow, because above M General rank they become targeted by nukes way more often. Keeping their health a bit lower will stop AI from targeting them with nukes a lot. Since you can use 8 gens in conquest, you might still want to get Guderian. He's just too good. Definitely make one EC tank, one EC artillery. Since you are p2w, you should build the third EC also, you can make him either tank, arty or even hybrid (instead of tide of iron, give him desperate skill, and both arty and tank stars, so he is completely flexible). After you finish 80-90% of two EC's, you can start leveling up your Ion Cannon. Go to level 16, and then pause for a while, because the next "worthwhile" level is 23, and that is REALLY expensive. I'd recommend leaving the phone on with autoclicker overnight to get medals from wonders (Pyramids, Cuzco and Terracotta). You could get about 600 medals per night with Manstein's perk. Also, buy Eifel Tower, Big Ben and the third one for mission time, because those reductions in time also work on wonders (meaning more medals when afk). That should be about it for now... If you got any questions feel free to ask I'd prefer Blitz on tank EC. After getting lvl 2 Expropriation it's not that hard to keep their HP above half. Infantry general with Organization are actually becoming relevant, especially the infantry EC. I find them more useful than the artillery ECs. 2 tank + 1 infantry is now the ideal EC setup. It's fine to promote your generals beyond M General, given that they are protected by anti-air. Aviation Fuel (air + combo) is also good for air generals. |
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MatosPoljca
Captain
Did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?
Posts: 80
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Post by MatosPoljca on May 21, 2024 15:54:36 GMT
Well I just can't agree with that. Your main power source would be artillery. You either go 2/2/2 or 2/3/1 or 1/3/2 or 3/2/1 (tank/arty/air). I play either 2/3/1 or 3/2/1, with first one being Tank EC, Guderian, Arty EC, Govorov, Sikorski, Bittrich, and second one replacing Sikorski with Katukov. No infantry in the game will ever be as useful as Govorov with fire suppression or group army. Even with just arty+mobility stars, he is dealing way too much damage without taking any in return. Think of generals on super tanks (which are plenty in 1950-1960 challenge). How are you going to deal with them with infantry gen? Even your tank gens will take heavy punishment from direct conflict. Meanwhile, 2-3 artillery gens can one-turn-kill an enemy supertank Manstein. Can't ever do anything like that with infantry... And even if you do, it will cost you 50% of their HP
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MatosPoljca
Captain
Did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?
Posts: 80
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Post by MatosPoljca on May 21, 2024 15:57:34 GMT
Unless you are pay to win, two sets of expropriation level 2 are incredibly hard to get. Even one set is helluva grind. And with Bittrich or Arnold and maxed infantry/tank, their speed is enough so that you can cycle cities, no need for extra air range. With Bittrich cost skill, all he needs is a ton of damage.
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Post by Erich von Manstein on May 23, 2024 20:02:07 GMT
Unless you are pay to win, two sets of expropriation level 2 are incredibly hard to get. Even one set is helluva grind. And with Bittrich or Arnold and maxed infantry/tank, their speed is enough so that you can cycle cities, no need for extra air range. With Bittrich cost skill, all he needs is a ton of damage.
Patience my friend. You will get it eventually. There are still some spots where extra range will be nice to have, for example the Italian cities in Ethiopia and Brisbane. |
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Post by Erich von Manstein on May 23, 2024 20:29:38 GMT
Well I just can't agree with that. Your main power source would be artillery. You either go 2/2/2 or 2/3/1 or 1/3/2 or 3/2/1 (tank/arty/air). I play either 2/3/1 or 3/2/1, with first one being Tank EC, Guderian, Arty EC, Govorov, Sikorski, Bittrich, and second one replacing Sikorski with Katukov. No infantry in the game will ever be as useful as Govorov with fire suppression or group army. Even with just arty+mobility stars, he is dealing way too much damage without taking any in return. Think of generals on super tanks (which are plenty in 1950-1960 challenge). How are you going to deal with them with infantry gen? Even your tank gens will take heavy punishment from direct conflict. Meanwhile, 2-3 artillery gens can one-turn-kill an enemy supertank Manstein. Can't ever do anything like that with infantry... And even if you do, it will cost you 50% of their HP I would've agreed with you if Organization and defense medals don't exist. The defense medals can completely cancel out the 50% damage bonus from tanks' machine guns, and Organization allows you to quickly regain HP within 2-3 turns. On the other hand, artillery generals have no effective ways of replenishing HP (unless Supply's 8 HP regen is good enough for you). I'm much more worried about Govorov dropping HP than my infantry EC because of that. As for damage, commando can hit has hard as FA against non-artillery unit, not to mention EC's Ace Commander. I wonder how can your 2 artillery general can kill Manstein at max (or near max) HP within 1 turn. From 1943 onwards Manstein always comes with high level Expropriation, meaning he has ~600 HP. You must be very lucky to pull out a couple of continuous hits. Super tank generals aren't that many in 1950/60. Assuming you are doing speedrun, the tank generals you are facing are Dumitrescu, Bagramyan, and Horthy, sometimes Rokossovsky and Katukov as well. Which one is that scary to you that you think your infantry EC with defense medals will be one turn killed without even having the chance to utilize his Organization? If you have multiple enemy generals attacking the same general, then you are doing something wrong. Even if you're fighting a strong enemy general that costs your infantry EC 50% HP, so what? Give him a few turns and he's back healthy. Can't do the same with artillery EC. |
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MatosPoljca
Captain
Did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?
Posts: 80
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Post by MatosPoljca on May 25, 2024 12:56:20 GMT
Well arty gen won't drop bellow 50% in the first place so no need for healing. No need for defence medals either. Just straight mass destruction damage. With my setup (not even maxed), my EC can deal anywhere from 180 to 300+ damage each turn, with 0 or 40% chance of taking retal (rocket/field). What inf gen can deal nearly close to that? And if he's next to Govorov, and they both proc Fire Suppression, they could deal 600+ damage in a single turn, yes. Just the two of them. The damage of arty units is just not comparable to inf units. Especially because arty units don't need any defence skills or defence medals, so all skills/medals are pure atomic weaponry.
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Post by Erich von Manstein on May 26, 2024 3:40:52 GMT
Well arty gen won't drop bellow 50% in the first place so no need for healing. No need for defence medals either. Just straight mass destruction damage. With my setup (not even maxed), my EC can deal anywhere from 180 to 300+ damage each turn, with 0 or 40% chance of taking retal (rocket/field). What inf gen can deal nearly close to that? And if he's next to Govorov, and they both proc Fire Suppression, they could deal 600+ damage in a single turn, yes. Just the two of them. The damage of arty units is just not comparable to inf units. Especially because arty units don't need any defence skills or defence medals, so all skills/medals are pure atomic weaponry. The expected damage for maxed artillery EC (PF + Explosives + AC + AB + any skill + Fire Suppression) is 162, for infantry EC it's 150 against artillery and aliens, 164.7 against tank, 181.5 against infantry, 171 against navy. The gap isn't large. Given that you said 2 sets of lvl 2 Expropriation is very hard to grind, I assume you have 2 sets of lvl 1 Fire Suppression on your artillery EC and Govorov. That means you only have 9% chance of dealing 600+ damage in a single turn, 0.56% if you don't perform s/l. That's not consistent enough for me to take it into consideration. Fire Suppression (and all similar skills) can only link units that can still attack, therefore you have to trigger Fire Suppression twice. Even if you can avoid damage within your turn, it's still inevitable that you will take damage outside your turn (especially so for RA). Eventually they will drop below half. If you are using FA and got unlucky, counterattacks will speed up this process. If you are fine with your EC being disposable then sure. |
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MatosPoljca
Captain
Did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?
Posts: 80
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Post by MatosPoljca on May 31, 2024 20:07:33 GMT
Fire Suppresion can trigger even if the unit has used up it's own attack (and is just standing now), the unit just has to be in range of the target. As long as you have two sets of fire suppresion lvl 1, and two arty gens (EC+Govy), their median damage is permanently increased by 25%+9% on average, because when Govorov attacks, 25% chance for EC to also attack, and vice versa. And each time you attack again, there's another chance for your nearby unit to also attack, and sometimes, that resulted in my EC attacking 3 times in a single turn, and 2 of those were doubled by Govorov, + Govorov's own attack = 6 artillery attacks in a single turn. If you count each as 150, that is 900 damage... That is rare, but it did happen. Even when it does not happen, 25% for double damage is already powerful enough, even without 9% for a second attack with a new chance double damage, AND the +12 damage from the medal at all times (mine is lvl 4 so +16). Considering that late game is basically just grinding operations (which are short/small, and don't rely a lot on sustain) and CC speedruns (also all under 30 turns, so no time for camping), all that late game is asking for is enorm damage.
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Post by Erich von Manstein on Jun 2, 2024 11:17:17 GMT
Fire Suppresion can trigger even if the unit has used up it's own attack (and is just standing now), the unit just has to be in range of the target. As long as you have two sets of fire suppresion lvl 1, and two arty gens (EC+Govy), their median damage is permanently increased by 25%+9% on average, because when Govorov attacks, 25% chance for EC to also attack, and vice versa. And each time you attack again, there's another chance for your nearby unit to also attack, and sometimes, that resulted in my EC attacking 3 times in a single turn, and 2 of those were doubled by Govorov, + Govorov's own attack = 6 artillery attacks in a single turn. If you count each as 150, that is 900 damage... That is rare, but it did happen. Even when it does not happen, 25% for double damage is already powerful enough, even without 9% for a second attack with a new chance double damage, AND the +12 damage from the medal at all times (mine is lvl 4 so +16). Considering that late game is basically just grinding operations (which are short/small, and don't rely a lot on sustain) and CC speedruns (also all under 30 turns, so no time for camping), all that late game is asking for is enorm damage. Are you sure Fire Suppression can link a unit that has already attacked? Because that's inconsistent with the game description and will be OP if proven true. I'm interpreting your words as Fire Suppression can be consistently triggered infinitely many times without triggering the combo medal's effect if we perform s/l, as long as there's a unit within the range of both generals. If the game description holds true, then your 6 hits is pretty much a one of a lifetime event, as it only has a 0.81% chance of triggering max, 0.05% if you didn't perform s/l. |
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MatosPoljca
Captain
Did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?
Posts: 80
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Post by MatosPoljca on Jun 2, 2024 13:06:29 GMT
You're confusing me now... Fire Supp can make any adjacent unit attack together with your commanding unit, given that that adjacent unit is also in range of the target. On lvl 1, that's a 25% chance for ANY adjacent unit, but only one per ability trigger (two if level 3). If you also trigger Combo and attack again, the second attack also has a 25% chance to link a unit (still only max one). If my Govorov and EC do similar damage (and both have Fire Supp), then Fire Supp has a 34% chance to double your damage (either combo or unit join), and 2.25% chance to deal triple damage (per commander), which equals to about 40% damage increase total, on average, per turn. Not counting the artillery medal itself, which gives +12 damage on it's own. I can tell you that is very much true because I've been using it for a long time now, and my artillery EC is near 2000 kills now, and my tank EC at over 5300. Still, Tank is for tanking damage and clearing fodder units (weak ones with no generals), and artillery is the main damage supply for assassinating gens.
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MatosPoljca
Captain
Did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?
Posts: 80
|
Post by MatosPoljca on Jun 2, 2024 13:47:00 GMT
Alright, I did the math. Taken in mind that I do count the Combo medal, and NOT the artillery medal, and also that these count ONLY while you have two (or three for lvl 3 fire supp) same artillery generals (all deal equal damage), these are the numbers:
Fire Suppression level 1 average damage increase: ~40.85%
Fire Suppression level 2 average damage increase: ~61.1%
Fire Suppression level 3 average damage increase: ~185.71%
If you ask me, those numbers are crazy high. Calculating all the skills and the lvl 5 artillery medal in, maxed out artillery EC would deal 166-186 damage (176 on average). With level 3 fire suppression, that increases to 502.85 damage AVERAGE, each turn, as long as he has another two artillery generals with the same damage as his own next to him. All three together would deal 1500 damage per turn, on average. Now, this is, of course, pay-to-win heaven of a scenario, but it does put into perspective how powerful Fire Suppresion can be. Having Govorov and one arty EC with two lvl 1 Fire Supps is already around 38% damage increase, on average.
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MatosPoljca
Captain
Did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?
Posts: 80
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Post by MatosPoljca on Jun 2, 2024 13:54:13 GMT
Here's another calculation I did (using AI of course). The average damage increase of your general with Fire Suppresion, but if nearby artillery units dealt only 70% of your own damage (if your EC deals 160, the adjacent commander does 112):
Lvl 1: 31.4%
Lvl 2: 46.4%
Lvl 3: 128.2%
Huge spike from lvl 2 to 3 (cuz lvl 2 is 35% chance for one unit to join, and lvl 3 is 50% for TWO units to join, so it makes sense)
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Post by Erich von Manstein on Jun 2, 2024 22:54:28 GMT
You're confusing me now... Fire Supp can make any adjacent unit attack together with your commanding unit, given that that adjacent unit is also in range of the target. On lvl 1, that's a 25% chance for ANY adjacent unit, but only one per ability trigger (two if level 3). If you also trigger Combo and attack again, the second attack also has a 25% chance to link a unit (still only max one). If my Govorov and EC do similar damage (and both have Fire Supp), then Fire Supp has a 34% chance to double your damage (either combo or unit join), and 2.25% chance to deal triple damage (per commander), which equals to about 40% damage increase total, on average, per turn. Not counting the artillery medal itself, which gives +12 damage on it's own. I can tell you that is very much true because I've been using it for a long time now, and my artillery EC is near 2000 kills now, and my tank EC at over 5300. Still, Tank is for tanking damage and clearing fodder units (weak ones with no generals), and artillery is the main damage supply for assassinating gens. What I mean is according to the game description, Fire Suppression only make an adjacent unit THAT CAN STILL ATTACK attack together, but from the way you're putting it, I thought you meant Fire Suppression make an adjacent unit attack together, regardless of whether they can still attack or not. This is what I got from running a computer program: For lvl 1/2 FS, I assume it's EC and Govorov, who deals 70% of EC's damage. And there's also Sikorski attacking by himself, who deals 60% of EC's damage and cannot attack twice. For lvl 3 FS Sikorski also has Fire Suppression. The attacking order is always Sikorski - Govorov - EC, so EC won't trigger his Fire Suppression. Assuming they all have the same level of FS. The numbers are the expected damage increased as the equivalent of EC's single hit damage. When none of them trigger combo and Fire Suppression, they deal 230% of EC's damage as a whole. lvl 1: ~44% lvl 2: ~63% lvl 3: ~150% Now I replace artillery EC with infantry EC, and Sikorski gets Fire Suppression and always attacks before Govorov. They also deal 230% of EC's damage as a whole. lvl 1: ~32% lvl 2: ~46% lvl 3: ~64% Is there a difference? Certainly. Is it a huge difference? Not so much unless you have lvl 3 Fire Suppression. The difference will be large if you always perform s/l, but I prefer not. |
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MatosPoljca
Captain
Did I ever tell you the definition of insanity?
Posts: 80
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Post by MatosPoljca on Jun 5, 2024 9:39:05 GMT
Nah mate. I see why you think infantry EC is useful now. Fire Suppression CAN trigger when adjacent unit can no longer attack Test it. Attack with a regular arty unit, then attack with Govorov with fire supp next to him. 25% (or 35/50%) of the time, the inactive artillery will join Govorov. That means, if you are attacking in order Sikorski - Govorov - EC, the EC can still trigger Govorov and Sikorski to join him. |
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