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Post by Desophaeus on Apr 15, 2016 20:39:26 GMT
I still am having a pp problem, as you go on, its gets ridiculsoly easy to upgrade your tech. Therefore, i belive we have to make tech riduculsoly hard. Or maybe we should make PP a bit more scarce Question, Władysław Anders... What did you use in your testing? The Germanic Cultural Group? And Bismarck... Germanics -Five more production to each region -Tech tree focuses on maximising tech research, however researching units will take more production but the units will be stronger than other cultures. Natives (New World) -Must start in the New World continent(s) -Only culture allowed to start in the New World -Tech tree is very, very slow to progress to the point to where they may even still be tribal by colonization -Focuses on strength in numbers as units require less production -Weaker units Latin (Roman) -Elite formations allow less cost to march (1/3 less) -Stronger Units -Expensive Units -Tech tree focuses on war and longevity -Strong Synergy I thought about the Germans in comparison to the Latins. I'm thinking of historical progressions between the two here. Here's what I suggest: Drop the Germanic PP benefit. It won't really be a serious crippling issue but they won't go crazy with PP growth. Here's why I don't think the Germanic barbarians deserve it... they've been lagging in the early times and became strong enough only near the end of the Ancient times. The Romans group should be the one with the PP benefits (maybe just a flat +20 PP per phase, not based on providences). I could be wrong on the Bohemia - Germany connection here, but from my understanding that Prague was among the earliest and strongest scientific centers of the Renaissance. The Germans became involved more and more into scientific studies only after the news spreaded to them from Bohemians, which transformed the Germania region into "Das Land der Dichter und Denker" in maybe 1300s, and the first Bible printed was in Germany a little after 1400 AD. So it makes sense to drop the PP benefits until the Medieval era and allow the Germanic Cultural Group to select the benefits of PP if they choose to be that way. Or even another option is a special building - University which gives a scientific boost? The English could come from the Germanic group as a seafaring-boosted faction, as well. Norse, Danish were from an early spilt of North Germanic barbarians. The Romans (Plus the Greeks) were the PRIME civilizations for the Ancient Era. They should have the PP +20, and their tribal tech tree very very short, allowing them to enter the Ancient Civilization period early. Techs like Alphabet, Literature, Papyrus & Scrolls, etc... Their Ancient times should have more of argiculture than hunting. Giving them a very soild agricultural-based economy. Plus superior Swordsmen during Bronze and Iron ages. I'm thinking of a seriously weakened Medieval tech tree, especially the military. PS Add a quick edit: Arabic isn't really that much of an actual group of people until early middle Ages and rose up with their Muhammed leading his own cult and remade the Middle East into an Islamic Arab-dominated region we all are familiar with in today's times. Pre-600s, the region was more of Mesopotamia - Babylonians, Assyrians, and Persians (even Egyptians which is a distant cousin isolated in the Nile valley). And after Alexander the Great's conquests, the whole area became Hellenistic. Maybe you can just call that Cultural group the Sumerian Group (later spawning an Arabic spilt)? Good basic info on this region and its past: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_periodThe Diadochi in particular was a hotbed of furious warfare between Macedonian generals.  |
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Post by Bismarck on Apr 15, 2016 20:51:20 GMT
Or maybe we should make PP a bit more scarce Question, Władysław Anders ... What did you use in your testing? The Germanic Cultural Group? And Bismarck ... Germanics -Five more production to each region -Tech tree focuses on maximising tech research, however researching units will take more production but the units will be stronger than other cultures. Natives (New World) -Must start in the New World continent(s) -Only culture allowed to start in the New World -Tech tree is very, very slow to progress to the point to where they may even still be tribal by colonization -Focuses on strength in numbers as units require less production -Weaker units Latin (Roman) -Elite formations allow less cost to march (1/3 less) -Stronger Units -Expensive Units -Tech tree focuses on war and longevity -Strong Synergy I thought about the Germans in comparison to the Latins. I'm thinking of historical progressions between the two here. Here's what I suggest: Drop the Germanic PP benefit. It won't really be a serious crippling issue but they won't go crazy with PP growth. Here's why I don't think the Germanic barbarians deserve it... they've been lagging in the early times and became strong enough only near the end of the Ancient times. The Romans group should be the one with the PP benefits (maybe just a flat +20 PP per phase, not based on providences). I could be wrong on the Bohemia - Germany connection here, but from my understanding that Prague was among the earliest and strongest scientific centers of the Renaissance. The Germans became involved more and more into scientific studies only after the news spreaded to them from Bohemians, which transformed the Germania region into "Das Land der Dichter und Denker" in maybe 1300s, and the first Bible printed was in Germany a little after 1400 AD. So it makes sense to drop the PP benefits until the Medieval era and allow the Germanic Cultural Group to select the benefits of PP if they choose to be that way. Or even another option is a special building - University which gives a scientific boost? The English could come from the Germanic group as a seafaring-boosted faction, as well. Norse, Danish were from an early spilt of North Germanic barbarians. The Romans (Plus the Greeks) were the PRIME civilizations for the Ancient Era. They should have the PP +20, and their tribal tech tree very very short, allowing them to enter the Ancient Civilization period early. Techs like Alphabet, Literature, Papyrus & Scrolls, etc... Their Ancient times should have more of argiculture than hunting. Giving them a very soild agricultural-based economy. Plus superior Swordsmen during Bronze and Iron ages. I'm thinking of a seriously weakened Medieval tech tree, especially the military. PS Add a quick edit: Arabic isn't really that much of an actual group of people until early middle Ages and rose up with their Muhammed leading his own cult and remade the Middle East into an Islamic Arab-dominated region we all are familiar with in today's times. Pre-600s, the region was more of Mesopotamia - Babylonians, Assyrians, and Persians (even Egyptians which is a distant cousin isolated in the Nile valley). And after Alexander the Great's conquests, the whole area became Hellenistic. Maybe you can just call that Cultural group the Sumerian Group (later spawning an Arabic spilt)? Good basic info on this region and its past: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_periodThe Diadochi in particular was a hotbed of furious warfare between Macedonian generals. Ah, once again, the great historian Desophaeus has corrected my mistakes. I'm going to work on this. Romans will have the production bonus from Tribal to Ancient, and the Germanics will have it Medieval onwards. I will definitely take everything into consideration after GW Alpha, but its too late for a complet overhaul. |
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Post by Desophaeus on Apr 15, 2016 21:00:15 GMT
I'm pretty sure if you ask General William T. Sherman, he could spot plenty of things I have overlooked. Between the two of us, Diego and I... I think we could add a lot of meat to the GW skeleton, a whole lot of meaty yummiest goodness!  |
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Post by Bismarck on Apr 15, 2016 21:34:11 GMT
I'm pretty sure if you ask General William T. Sherman, he could spot plenty of things I have overlooked. Between the two of us, Diego and I... I think we could add a lot of meat to the GW skeleton, a whole lot of meaty yummiest goodness! This has become the Hot Pocket war |
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Post by General William T. Sherman on Apr 16, 2016 2:54:52 GMT
Have to agree with Desophaeus, the Romans and Greeks were the european superpowers during the ancient eras. More specifically, about the cultures. I think it is a bit much to just group all of the Native American together into one group. I believe there should be three main Native American cultures: Inuit, Sioux, Guarani, and Patagonian. Of course there are other groups such as the Cherokee, Puebla, Aztec, etc., but having every single one be a culture would be too much. |
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Post by General William T. Sherman on Apr 16, 2016 3:01:51 GMT
Looked at the culture groups again, and I'm seeing more issues.
It seems like you're focusing wayyyyy too much on European and Asian cultures. I mean we have like four different Latin cultures alone and only one culture for Africa. So here's my input:
African Cultures:
Kongolese
Ethiopian
Khoisan
Songhai
Berber
Oceanic/Polynesian Cultures:
Maori
Polynesian
Aborigine
I also think that we have to get rid of some of the Latin cultures. I think it should be split into Latin (Roman) and Latin (Post-Roman) instead of separate ones for Italian, Spanish, and French.
If you want me too, I can also give recommendations on what bonuses should go to what group.
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Post by Desophaeus on Apr 16, 2016 3:57:43 GMT
Looked at the culture groups again, and I'm seeing more issues. It seems like you're focusing wayyyyy too much on European and Asian cultures. I mean we have like four different Latin cultures alone and only one culture for Africa. So here's my input: African Cultures: Kongolese Ethiopian Khoisan Songhai Berber Oceanic/Polynesian Cultures: Maori Polynesian Aborigine I also think that we have to get rid of some of the Latin cultures. I think it should be split into Latin (Roman) and Latin (Post-Roman) instead of separate ones for Italian, Spanish, and French. If you want me too, I can also give recommendations on what bonuses should go to what group. I had a suggestion on that subject too. We think alike sometimes What I did proposed to Junior was that the Latins are bundled together as one Latin major group but still can hit a point where the tech permits or an event is triggered at a specific turn, then the players in Latin may choose a more specific subgroup that gives a specific benefit but still remains in the same major cultural group. Junior said he would have to get to it after the Alpha is done. I'll write the ideas thus so far. |
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Post by Desophaeus on Apr 16, 2016 4:39:44 GMT
Germanics all have the same tech tree, Latins all have the same tech tree so forth... But the players will have to make a choice mid-game at some point to select a spilt for a benefit. Please note this list is just a starting point for ideas, not the offical list. Germanic (Teutons) better knights -- Teutonic Knights Germanic (Austrian) better diplomacy or cultured related benefit as in music etc ...? Germanic (French) no bonus, switches groups, becoming Latin (French) Germanic (English) better seafaring Germanic (Nordic) viking-related benefit - better foot soldiers and some seafaring Germanic (Dutch) gets nothing except for wooden shoes jk NetherFreek Germanic (Afrikaan) switch groups, becoming African (Afrikaan) Latin (Roman) better argiculture / infrastructure Latin (Spanish) better seafaring Latin (Italian) better commerce Latin (Portuguese) better seafaring / exploring? Latin (Romanian) switch groups, becoming Slavic (Romanian) Latin (Venetian) increased boost in city-state govt? Slavic (Russian) population growth? Slavic (Polish) give me something here? Slavic (Serbian) Anything? Slavic (Ukrainian) stronger resistance? Slavic (Bohemian) switch groups, becoming Germanic (Bohemian) Native (Sioux) better cavalry Native (Cherokee) ? Native (Iroquois) better infrastructure Native (Azetc) allows blood sacrifices for a benefit? Native (Inca) ? Native (Mayan) ? Asian (Chinese) stronger govt effect? Asian (Korean) better science? Asian (Japanese) better foot soliders - ninja and samurai Asian (Mongolian) better cavalry Asian (Indian) combine between Asian and Sumerian benefits? Tolerance? Sumerian (Babylonian) better argiculture Sumerian (Egyptian) better cavalry - chariots, plus some agriculture? Sumerian (Assyrian) better supression of conquered or rebels plus some military benefits Sumerian (Arabic) stronger Holy Wars effects Sumerian (Persian) Trading and cultural acceptance? Sumerian (Phoenician) better seafaring African (Malian) Trade? African (Kongo) ? African (Songjai) ? African (Berber) switch groups, becoming Sumerian (Berber) More to be added whatever General William T. Sherman had brought up. What do you guys think? |
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Post by NetherFreek on Apr 16, 2016 6:35:28 GMT
Wooden shoes  That cant walk good i think :/ Anyways, good that you didnt start about XTC |
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Post by Władysław Anders on Apr 16, 2016 8:01:25 GMT
ECSTACY!!!!  |
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Post by General William T. Sherman on Apr 16, 2016 8:47:17 GMT
Songhai and Malian are meant to be kind of the same culture, but we can call them either or.
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Post by Desophaeus on Apr 16, 2016 13:24:57 GMT
Songhai and Malian are meant to be kind of the same culture, but we can call them either or. Oh yes, that's true. I wasn't thinking. Just vomiting things into here. |
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Post by General William T. Sherman on Apr 16, 2016 13:26:03 GMT
For Malian/Songhai, i agree with the trade and i agree that the Berbers should be allowed to change to the Sumerian group as the eventually became more like Arabs than traditional african.
For Kongo, i say higher PP benefit as they were a large slave trading state and had many slaves of their own to work.
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Post by General William T. Sherman on Apr 16, 2016 13:36:13 GMT
For the Native Americans, i overall agree with the cultures but i believe the Aztec or the Mayans should be scrapped in favor of another South American culture such as the Guarani. The Aztecs and Maya were in the same region (Mesoamerica), so i believe this is fair. I also believe we should add in the Inuit, as they are the largest group in the Northern New World.
For Sioux, i say +1 on all dice rolls. Even though they were kick*ss at cavalry warfare, horses weren't in the New World until the Europeans came.
For Cherokee, i say higher PP benefit as they assimilated pretty quickly into European/American life compared to other groups.
For Iroquois, infrastructure is fine.
For Inuit, higher assimilation and cultural acceptance.
For Aztec, i say stronger Holy War effect (Maybe +1 for any Holy War) and a stronger PP benefit (Not as much as the Cherokee)
For Incan, better infrastructure and strong PP benefit (Not as much as Cherokee)
For Guarani, i say +2 on warfare, but with lower PP benefit than other Native American groups.
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Post by General William T. Sherman on Apr 16, 2016 13:41:19 GMT
Also, when i say Higher PP benefit for the Native Americans or Native African groups, this doesn't mean they become equal to the other groups. Its just a better PP benefit.
For example, to research Community as a Native American group such as the Inuit, it would take 25 PP. But as a group like the Cherokee, for example, it would take something like 15-20 PP to research this.
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