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Post by andrei on Oct 21, 2017 22:51:41 GMT
Looks like these 25 points made Your day many times... Didn't want to insult You. Sorry, that wasn't my intention. Could You please explain me why are You talking about pure Plain figting? What is damage? Sum - Unit attack which is hugely influenced by techs. That's why I asked You to check the attack of the unit in 1939 conquest to comparethe difference. - Quantity of stars - Assault skill wich is influenced by medal - Terrain boosting skill which is situational All of it is influenced by leader skill. Formula is unknown. However it makes main input as we see final output is several hundred damage points... So, I know I lose those 25 points (plains only) which is really marginal and much more when leader triggers, but it can't save me in situations when enemy is much stronger. When my techs are maxed and enemies are no match I'll switch to one of the terrain bonus for record output. But now it is simply useless. You keep talking about it saving you. This post wasn’t about you. The OP has maxed out Guderian and Konev. If you need to be saved by Rumor while using maxed out Guderian and Konev at the tech level the OP said he has (Pacific level), you are seriously doing something wrong. The enemy will NEVER be “much stronger” thank maxed out Guderian and Konev. They are literally the strongest generals in the game. It also is not 25 points. It is 37 points. You can use medals for Panzer Leader, Armored Assault and Plain Fighting on the same General. That means maxed out Guderian gets 37 points of damage on plains, which are available on almost every turn in every scenario and conquest. If you can’t find Plains to get that bonus damage, you stink at positioning. They are everywhere. It is not marginal. I will ask you one more time: Do you realize that the bonus damage you get from six stars of tank skill compared to zero stars is 30 points? The damage difference between my maxed out Guderian with Plain Fighting with medal and a maxed out Guderian with Rumor is MORE than the difference between a general with zero tank stars and one with six tank stars. How can you keep saying this is marginal? It’s massive, particularly when you factor in the damage boosts from other abilities that multiply that 37 points of damage. It is totally irrational to compare 0 star and 6 star. General value is about sum of skills, stars etc. You simply ignore what I am saying. Quoted my message but ignored it totally. Why have You quoted it. 3 star general with tank skills is better then 6 star with no skills. So the difference is not massive if skills are the same. It is only 30 points difference between 0 and 6! We are comparing same general with and without particular skill and what is the influince. |
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Post by soonerjbd on Oct 21, 2017 23:13:01 GMT
Any screenshots I post will be dismissed because I have max tech and can’t turn that off. But simple math is all that is necessary here. The skill says exactly how much bonus damage it provides. I mean that if you will give Rumor to YUOR Guderian and compare it to YOUR Manstein, this comparison will be fair. Thech tree doesn't matter, I think, in that case... Tech will matter because the base damage I get from higher tech is factored in when Panzer Leader hits. Besides, I’m not spending a fortune in medals to sacrifice Plain Fighting for Rumor with Guderian only to switch right back just to prove a point that can be made with basic math. |
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Post by andrei on Oct 21, 2017 23:19:29 GMT
Screenshots will only show output. Our argue is about what are the factors influence it and whether it worth... But if we can see output with and without Panzer leader triggered, possibly we can make conclusion whether or not Plain fighting or other terrain bonuses play a significant part in Panzer leader damage... Made some testing Soviets 1943 (there is heavy tank in the very begining available). Attacked from plains. Same boost medals plus plain medal for Manstein. Attacked single medium german tank. Manstein - around 130 without leader trigger, 180-200 with leader trigger Guderian - around 90 without leader triggered, 150-175 with leader trigger. No one shot both cases. Interesting to hear soonerjbd's figures to compare techs influence  |
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Post by soonerjbd on Oct 21, 2017 23:25:33 GMT
You keep talking about it saving you. This post wasn’t about you. The OP has maxed out Guderian and Konev. If you need to be saved by Rumor while using maxed out Guderian and Konev at the tech level the OP said he has (Pacific level), you are seriously doing something wrong. The enemy will NEVER be “much stronger” thank maxed out Guderian and Konev. They are literally the strongest generals in the game. It also is not 25 points. It is 37 points. You can use medals for Panzer Leader, Armored Assault and Plain Fighting on the same General. That means maxed out Guderian gets 37 points of damage on plains, which are available on almost every turn in every scenario and conquest. If you can’t find Plains to get that bonus damage, you stink at positioning. They are everywhere. It is not marginal. I will ask you one more time: Do you realize that the bonus damage you get from six stars of tank skill compared to zero stars is 30 points? The damage difference between my maxed out Guderian with Plain Fighting with medal and a maxed out Guderian with Rumor is MORE than the difference between a general with zero tank stars and one with six tank stars. How can you keep saying this is marginal? It’s massive, particularly when you factor in the damage boosts from other abilities that multiply that 37 points of damage. It is totally irrational to compare 0 star and 6 star. General value is about sum of skills, stars etc. You simply ignore what I am saying. Quoted my message but ignored it totally. Why have You quoted it. 3 star general with tank skills is better then 6 star with no skills. So the difference is not massive if skills are the same. It is only 30 points difference between 0 and 6! We are comparing same general with and without particular skill and what is the influince. I have not ignored what you have said. I have directly addressed it and handily shown why it is nonsense. You give up 37 base damage by not taking Plain Fighting. That is the same (actually one more)as sacrificing all bonus damage from tech in the top half of the tech tree. It is 23 percent more than you get from six stars of tank skill. And that is unmodified damage. Once you factor in the bonuses from other damage abilities and Leader skill, you are giving up a ton of damage on virtually every single turn, and you are doing it for a skill that you won’t see any benefit from except in specific situations where you are facing a very strong tank general, made worse by the fact that you gave up so much damage to begin with. Honestly, this is starting to really annoy me. You are providing no math or empirical evidence to support your assertions. You do this in spite of the fact that you can’t come close to defeating these scenarios in the speed I did even before I got Cold War tech upgrades. |
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Post by soonerjbd on Oct 21, 2017 23:28:46 GMT
But if we can see output with and without Panzer leader triggered, possibly we can make conclusion whether or not Plain fighting or other terrain bonuses play a significant part in Panzer leader damage... Made some testing Soviets 1943 (there is heavy tank in the very begining available). Attacked from plains. Same boost medals plus plain medal for Manstein. Attacked single medium german tank. Manstein - around 130 without leader trigger, 180-200 with leader trigger Guderian - around 90 without leader triggered, 150-175 with leader trigger. No one shot both cases. Interesting to hear soonerjbd's figures to compare techs influence You get 40 more damage in an unstacked heavy tank and don’t see why that translates to a major difference. Try it when you attack a double stacked artillery, which has less defense. I routinely get one shots on double stacked artillery that you won’t without Plain Fighting. |
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Post by andrei on Oct 21, 2017 23:28:59 GMT
No problem. Provide Your math please.
On the same example as I did in my previous message.
We are arguing about the influence of skill and techs, aren't we?
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Post by soonerjbd on Oct 21, 2017 23:31:11 GMT
But if we can see output with and without Panzer leader triggered, possibly we can make conclusion whether or not Plain fighting or other terrain bonuses play a significant part in Panzer leader damage... Made some testing Soviets 1943 (there is heavy tank in the very begining available). Attacked from plains. Same boost medals plus plain medal for Manstein. Attacked single medium german tank. Manstein - around 130 without leader trigger, 180-200 with leader trigger Guderian - around 90 without leader triggered, 150-175 with leader trigger. No one shot both cases. Interesting to hear soonerjbd's figures to compare techs influence Also, are all of your abilities with Manstein and Guderian maxed out? Were they both using medals to boost those skills? Give Manstein Panzer Leader Medal, Armored Assault Medal and Plain Fighting Medal. Compare that to Guderian with just Panzer Leader and Armored Assault Medal. The Blitzkrieg Medal I’m assuming you would use on Guderian makes no difference on Attack numbers. |
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Post by soonerjbd on Oct 21, 2017 23:35:37 GMT
No problem. Provide Your math please. On the same example as I did in my previous message. We are arguing about the influence of skill and techs, aren't we? We are not arguing about tech. Regardless of tech level, 37 points of base damage from Plain Fighting makes a major difference, especially when it is boosted by Panzer Leader 60 percent of the time, exponentially increasing that damage. |
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Post by andrei on Oct 21, 2017 23:42:05 GMT
No problem. Provide Your math please. On the same example as I did in my previous message. We are arguing about the influence of skill and techs, aren't we? We are not arguing about tech. Regardless of tech level, 37 points of base damage from Plain Fighting makes a major difference, especially when it is boosted by Panzer Leader 60 percent of the time, exponentially increasing that damage. Why don't You read what I post? I mentioned that I used both boost medals plus plain medal for Manstein. During all this discussion I was saying that damage difference is not that important because I either can't one-shot or can't shot once again after kill. I was saying that in that case my tactical Rumor is much more important. I insisted that Your arguments reggarding damage oriented skills are OK for maxed techs. And now You are saying it was not about techs. Fantastic As I understand You don't want to give Your figures? |
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Post by stoic on Oct 21, 2017 23:48:49 GMT
With respect... The topic is interesting, but it's only game mechanics... There is nothing about it to make it personal...
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Post by soonerjbd on Oct 21, 2017 23:50:33 GMT
We are not arguing about tech. Regardless of tech level, 37 points of base damage from Plain Fighting makes a major difference, especially when it is boosted by Panzer Leader 60 percent of the time, exponentially increasing that damage. Why don't You read what I post? I mentioned that I used both boost medals plus plain medal for Manstein. During all this discussion I was saying that damage difference is not that important because I either can't one-shot or can't shot once again after kill. I was saying that in that case my tactical Rumor is much more important. I insisted that Your arguments reggarding damage oriented skills are OK for maxed techs. And now You are saying it was not about techs. Fantastic As I understand You don't want to give Your figures? Because, once again, the original post WAS NOT ABOUT YOU. The original poster has high enough tech that he will get many more one-shots by taking a damage skill. So are yours, you just refuse to admit it even when your own testing shows the difference. Your testing showed Manstein doing 40 more damage unmodified by Panzer Leader. Your data with Panzer Leader looks extremely sketchy, as the idea that you get less additional damage when Panzer Leader triggers looks highly suspicious. Further, I don’t trust you to honestly conduct testing because you have been intellectually dishonest throughout this conversation. I’m very close to simply blocking you. If I want irrational aggressive arguments from people who trust their feelings over science and math, I can go to any Facebook comment section. |
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Post by soonerjbd on Oct 21, 2017 23:52:57 GMT
I don’t give figures from testing because I can’t test it without spending a ton of medals to switch abilities back and forth. I’m not doing that when the simple math shows how wrong you are. You want those figures? 37 > 0
I don’t know why this is hard to understand.
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Post by andrei on Oct 21, 2017 23:58:17 GMT
I don’t give figures from testing because I can’t test it without spending a ton of medals to switch abilities back and forth. I’m not doing that when the simple math shows how wrong you are. You want those figures? 37 > 0 I don’t know why this is hard to understand. In case You was trying to say that plain fighting can provide higher output You wasted our time. I agreed with that from the very beginning. With all respect the argue was not about that. Btw, there is no need to switch Manstein's abilities. It is only switching the medals. Couple of seconds. |
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Post by soonerjbd on Oct 22, 2017 0:01:43 GMT
And I’ve blocked my first person on this board. Tired of being talked down to.
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Post by Erwin Johannes Eugen Rommel on Oct 22, 2017 0:15:20 GMT
I don’t give figures from testing because I can’t test it without spending a ton of medals to switch abilities back and forth. I’m not doing that when the simple math shows how wrong you are. You want those figures? 37 > 0 I don’t know why this is hard to understand. In case You was trying to say that plain fighting can provide higher output You wasted our time. I agreed with that from the very beginning. With all respect the argue was not about that. Btw, there is no need to switch Manstein's abilities. It is only switching the medals. Couple of seconds. I have read your arguments for Rumor skill. Unless you're using a naval general, it is indeed very useless. I currently have Messe and yes, his Rumor is very useful, but that's because he has low output. In case of Guderian, Plain + Blitz (or even either alone) is so OP. Never have I seen any tank general that needs more than 2 hits -- with support -- with Guderian in Germany 1939. My tank tech is still naught too. |
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