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Post by soonerjbd on Oct 22, 2017 0:40:48 GMT
In case You was trying to say that plain fighting can provide higher output You wasted our time. I agreed with that from the very beginning. With all respect the argue was not about that. Btw, there is no need to switch Manstein's abilities. It is only switching the medals. Couple of seconds. I have read your arguments for Rumor skill. Unless you're using a naval general, it is indeed very useless. I currently have Messe and yes, his Rumor is very useful, but that's because he has low output. In case of Guderian, Plain + Blitz (or even either alone) is so OP. Never have I seen any tank general that needs more than 2 hits -- with support -- with Guderian in Germany 1939. My tank tech is still naught too. Damage skills will speed your victory with top tank and artillery generals. There is no disputing that. |
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Post by Saltin on Oct 22, 2017 1:29:01 GMT
This thread has been temporarily locked for staff review as it looks like it is getting too heated.
Updated post:
Ok opened again, I trust everyone calmed down by now. Let's avoid making these debates personal or use terms that put people on the defensive. Attack the argument only, do not attack the person behind the argument. I have edited and removed some of these comments as inappropriate.
I suggest both soonerjbd and Andrei NOT quote each other at all and NOT tag each other at all. This is what needs to happen when two members are annoyed by each other. Don't encroach of each other for a while. If you want to state your opinion on a topic you can of course, just post without grabbing the other attention with quoting or tagging, do this at least for a while.
As to the On Topic: I tend to favor not mixing utility with pure damage/higher output so on my top damage dealers you won't find the Rumor skill at all. Having said that I absolutely love using Rumor on some of my other generals, I think not only is it a super fun skill (yeah..let's go make this tough cookie general take a long morale nap! ) but it might eventually be accepted as a viable skill for the top damage generals too, even if this might be a slightly less efficient way to approach the game.
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Post by andrei on Oct 23, 2017 5:12:39 GMT
Thanks for opening the thread again.
I'll try to make myself clear - just to summarize in one post what I wanted to say during this long discussion.
1. I don't care about additional 25 points damage in case I anyway need to hit next turn same unit or to use another team member to kill it. It will not change my gameplay and consequently investing in this skill is medal waste for now.
That is the first point I want to mention.
2. Much more important part of our discussion (at least for me) is skill and techs influencing total damage.
We DON'T KNOW the exact formula!
But we know something for sure. What is it?
- base for the damage is unit's attack
- it is hugely influenced by techs and generals (stars and skills)
Now let's compare.
a) Techs. Max upgraded heavy tank has 2 times higher attack than non-upgraded one. 2 times without general!
Now imagine how huge the difference will be when best general used. The unit's attack influenced by tech is added with stars boost. This figure is affected by armor assault skill and leader skill when triggered.
b) Plain fighting. It is not affected by other boosting skills. Don't know who told that it is affected. According to my experience and some testing (I have given figures earlier in the thread) it is always same 25 (37 with plain medal) points doesn't matter whether leader skill triggered or not.
It is simply added (or not) to the overall damage depending on the terrain You are using in this particular moment. And it is quite logical. It can easily be checked in the screen of the unit's statistics. Statistic is dynamic. Changed when general assigned, when Rumor affected, but not changed when on the specific terrain tile.
As for me these additional 25 points bonus is not changing anything for the general that can deal 200, 300 or even 500 damage depending on Your techs level. When I am fully upgraded and can one-shot everything I will probably switch to it, not sure. But anyway before that I prefer much more convenient Rumor. Don't forget that by lowering enemy's morale (not to mention disabling) You reduce his attack dramatically - around 45%. This is much more important when fighting strong enemy generals in comparison to a marginal 25 points.
So, imo skills like plain/jungle/mountain are too weak to invest in it when medals are soo necessary for much better skills
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Post by stoic on Oct 23, 2017 5:30:42 GMT
My point of view is that the thread could be very instructive (though not without unnecessary tension in the past, that should be avoided in the future). I hope andrei and soonerjbd (or perhaps other participants) will continue discussion. It is a very important crossroad - additional personal skill (for example, terrain bonuses) or some usefull team skills (Rumor, and I would say Crowd tactics)... I think that in the name of science (!)  all personal sympathies and antipathies are secondary and far less important... But it is only my own opinion... |
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Post by andrei on Oct 23, 2017 5:40:43 GMT
My point of view is that the thread could be very instructive (though not without unnecessary tension in the past, that should be avoided in the future). I hope andrei and soonerjbd (or perhaps other participants) will continue discussion. It is a very important crossroad - additional personal skill (for example, terrain bonuses) or some usefull team skills (Rumor, and I would say Crowd tactics)... I think that in the name of science (!) all personal sympathies and antipathies are secondary and far less important... But it is only my own opinion... Rumor is great mainly because it lowers enemy's attack. I wasn't planning to investigate Crowd tactics as I don't like using ordinary spawned units even in conquests  But I was planning to use Machinist with Rokossovskiy in the future. Just to test it with/without medal. Interesting that such skill (that looks quite weak) has only 30% buff. |
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Post by stoic on Oct 23, 2017 5:45:44 GMT
My point of view is that the thread could be very instructive (though not without unnecessary tension in the past, that should be avoided in the future). I hope andrei and soonerjbd (or perhaps other participants) will continue discussion. It is a very important crossroad - additional personal skill (for example, terrain bonuses) or some usefull team skills (Rumor, and I would say Crowd tactics)... I think that in the name of science (!) all personal sympathies and antipathies are secondary and far less important... But it is only my own opinion... Rumor is great mainly because it lowers enemy's attack. I wasn't planning to investigate Crowd tactics as I don't like using ordinary spawned units even in conquests But I was planning to use Machinist with Rokossovskiy in the future. Just to test it with/without medal. Interesting that such skill (that looks quite weak) has only 30% buff. And moreover we can receive this medal only comparatively late in the game. Either this skill is great, or a complete fraud |
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Post by stoic on Oct 23, 2017 6:00:27 GMT
And another important question...
How many team members with Rumor do we actually need to use simultaneously? The more the better or exact number is enough?
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Post by andrei on Oct 23, 2017 6:13:27 GMT
And another important question... How many team members with Rumor do we actually need to use simultaneously? The more the better or exact number is enough? According to my experience in campaigns and domination all naval generals. On land 2 is enough for me. Normally You are facing 1 strong enemy general in a city or on the field. I am trying to lower his morale and consequently his firepower immediately. That is why I wanted Rumor with my best fighting general who is first to face enemy. So my other units coming after him do not suffer that much. Second Rumor general is mainly an insurance and chance to disable. |
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Post by stoic on Oct 23, 2017 6:16:33 GMT
According to my experience in campaigns and domination all naval generals. On land 2 is enough for me. Normally You are facing 1 strong enemy general in a city or on the field. I am trying to lower his morale and consequently his firepower immediately. That is why I wanted Rumor with my best fighting general who is first to face enemy. So my other units coming after him do not suffer that much. Second Rumor general is mainly an insurance and chance to disable. Then a combination Blitzkrieg + Rumor makes sense, or 2 Art generals can have it... |
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Post by soonerjbd on Oct 23, 2017 6:18:19 GMT
I solved the issue by blocking a user. I’m not interested in personal insults or being patronized.
My perspective on this is informed by my attempts to finish scenarios and conquests as quickly as possible. The reason I am so high on Rumor as a naval skill is that naval battles last for many turns. As great a naval general as Dönitz is, he can’t kill an opposing naval general in a stacked cruiser or Super Battleship in one or two turns, and really not in four or five turns by himself. Even with two top naval generals working together, it takes time to wear down high HP naval units. Dönitz isn’t going to hit for more than 100 or so damage in one turn in a stacked cruiser. He can max out around 200 with Fleet Leader hits in a stacked sub against a cruiser or carrier. Naval units have more HP than land units, and naval generals do less damage than land generals. If you can stun lock a 1,500 HP general in a Super Battleship, you can move in all your other naval units without worrying about the damage they will take from retaliation or on the enemy’s turn. It makes it much easier to focus fire and complete naval objectives more quickly. It shaves turns off of your victory time. But Rumor simply doesn’t do that when you are talking about top-level maxed out tank and artillery generals.
When your top tank and artillery generals can hit for 300 or more damage on one turn and even more against city fortifications, fights just don’t last that long. In the last Cold War NATO mission, on hard mode, Zhukov has 623 HP. Chuikov has 358. Timoshenko has the most in his super tank at 1,048 HP. A top tank and artillery general working together can take all of them out in a couple of turns at most. You are usually nuking Timoshenko before your generals can even reach him. There is simply nothing to be gained from trying to stun lock with Rumor. This isn’t an isolated case. A maxed out Guderian overmatches any enemy general you will ever face in scenarios through Cold War and conquests through 1950. The issue is even more glaring in conquests, where enemy tank generals usually aren’t in stacked tanks and are often worn down from fighting their way to you before you ever come into contact with them. They won’t last more than two turns against a maxed out Guderian, particularly if he has any support. And you don’t need maxed out tech for this to be the case.
Both Guderian and Konev can take Plain Fighting and Explosives. Those abilities combined with bonuses from medals are WHY they can kill enemy generals in one or two turns. Sacrificing those damage abilities for Rumor is just going to slow you down. That doesn’t mean Rumor is never a good skill for a land general. Saltin alluded to this. Your third tank general or your second artillery general aren’t going to have the medal boosts that let them put out the ridiculous damage numbers you get from your top guys. So it may be that Rumor can help them more. Leeb already comes with Rumor, which is a good skill for him. It’s just not as good a skill on Konev. Rumor makes sense for Graziani. He isn’t going to put out the damage Guderian will, and Rumor can make up for that difference in output and keep him alive longer against enemy generals. Guderian will just blow through the enemy generals and move on to the next city if you give him the right damage abilities and medals. Things might also change when modern warfare is released. If the enemies are anything like the aliens in WC3, a skill like Rumor could suddenly be a lot more valuable. But in the game we have now, damage abilities are the best option for your top tank and artillery generals.
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Post by andrei on Oct 23, 2017 6:21:01 GMT
Then a combination Blitzkrieg + Rumor makes sense, or 2 Art generals can have it... I have it with Guderian and Konev. So yes, Blitzkrieg is great as You can lowers enemy generals attack for free - with no payback To arty is probably not the best idea. Arty is too fragile. I normally use arty as a second row attack. |
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Post by andrei on Oct 23, 2017 6:26:26 GMT
When You have maxed techs You simply don't care about tactical skills. You probably one-shot everything, but Guderian with low techs 2 times weaker than Guderian maxed and so you can't play at a lower tech in that same way.
Moderated by Saltin :Some content has been edited.
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Post by soonerjbd on Oct 23, 2017 6:31:16 GMT
TL/DR: It takes a couple of turns for Rumor to make a big difference. It’s a 75 percent chance at max level, and you need two hits for it to make a big difference. If it takes you more than a couple of turns to take out enemy generals with a maxed out Guderian and Konev, you are doing something wrong. If you don’t have top tier generals or for secondary generals that aren’t as powerful and aren’t getting your best damage medals, Rumor is worth more of a look. Even then, I think you will achieve victory significantly faster in both scenarios and conquests by taking damage abilities over Rumor. Naval generals are a different story. Rumor is a must-have skill for all naval generals because they don’t do the massive damage tank and artillery units can and because naval units have much higher HP than land units.
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Post by andrei on Oct 23, 2017 6:41:40 GMT
As we can see some players saying that Rumor needs severals turns to make difference means they do not even take into accout the effect of the morale loss. And it is all about mechanics.
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Post by soonerjbd on Oct 23, 2017 6:49:33 GMT
Also worth addressing the repeated false claim that tech makes a big difference in this discussion. I was killing enemies just as fast with WWII Pacific level tech when using maxed out tank and artillery generals in WWII scenarios. The reason is pretty simple. The strength of enemy generals scales up as you progress to later scenarios. So the point is to keep your tech upgrades on pace with your progress in the game. As long as you do that, you’ll kill things at the same speed you always have. If you neglect your tech tree and fall way behind, you will struggle to kill Cold War hard mode generals which have additional promotions and more HP.
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all personal sympathies and antipathies are secondary and far less important... But it is only my own opinion...
